What is stopping women from cycling?

reohn2
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Re: What is stopping women from cycling?

Postby reohn2 » 9 Jun 2018, 12:54pm

pjclinch wrote:..... Why do so many people do the school run by car? Because everyone else does, that's what we do in the UK...

Pete.

My elderest daughter (45) escorts her two youngest to school by bike and has been accosted by other parent's at the school gates on a couple of occasions for "putting her children's lives at risk" by riding with them to school,even though they ride through a quiet housing estate and the youngest who's now 7 rides on the pavement :?
A lot of minds need changing about cycling and motoring IMO.
Last edited by reohn2 on 10 Jun 2018, 12:43am, edited 1 time in total.
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gaz
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Re: What is stopping women from cycling?

Postby gaz » 10 Jun 2018, 12:25am

gnvqsos wrote:I think people are demonising lorry drivers.I really dont know how someone can claim the majority break the law.

HGV.png
HGV speed limit compliance 2016

For 20mph roads it's a clear majority, 30mph a significant minority. Both better than the comparitive stats for car drivers.

Source.

brynpoeth
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Re: What is stopping women from cycling?

Postby brynpoeth » 10 Jun 2018, 6:56am

gaz wrote:
gnvqsos wrote:I think people are demonising lorry drivers.I really dont know how someone can claim the majority break the law.

HGV.png
For 20mph roads it's a clear majority, 30mph a significant minority. Both better than the comparitive stats for car drivers.

Source.

It used to be more until the maximum limit for single-carriageways was raised from 40 to 50 mph
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gnvqsos
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Re: What is stopping women from cycling?

Postby gnvqsos » 10 Jun 2018, 9:19pm

I thank the above post-holders.The average cyclist probably drives a car,and once inside their vehicle many are not concerned with the cyclist.Lorry drivers are quite professional and capable-much better than the typical motorist.I know several lorry drivers who cycle frequently but are scared to "come out",and some pretend to be accountants,insurance brokers and even vicars.

brynpoeth
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Re: What is stopping women from cycling?

Postby brynpoeth » 10 Jun 2018, 9:41pm

Just saw a recruitment campaign for Catholic priests
"I used to operate the signals on the railway, now I signal the way to the Lord"

Who knows whether people are telling the truth about their jobs? :wink:

I drive to work, I love crawling along behind cyclists, holding up normal drivers who would try to overtake although there is not enough room to do so safely

Proud to report that the cops once followed me home and questioned me after noticing me driving slower than normal :wink:
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awavey
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Re: What is stopping women from cycling?

Postby awavey » 12 Jun 2018, 1:06am

reohn2 wrote:
awavey wrote:
reohn2 wrote:That vehicle sounds very much like an LGV(rigid 7.5 tonne box van type)usually used by delivery companies and with significant number driven by morons on very tight delivery schedules.
Vehicles similar to the one in this link perhaps:- https://www.google.com/search?q=7.5+ton ... BFM:&isa=y


no I can assure you it was very much like one of these types of lorry https://www.google.com/search?client=ta ... +truck+a14


Ok,you were there not me .
I can only reiterate what I posted up thread that I have very problems with Hy's,but there's bound to be a few loonies driving them.It must have been a very frightening experience.
Did you report it to the police or the company ?


no, I had no proof anyway, would be just my word against theres, and there wasnt a hope in hell of me remembering the number plate, in those situations all my brain focuses on is survival, and by the time I can think clearly again, they are already long gone, and it wasnt like it was recognisable company or firm, vaguely remember it might even have been left hand drive, so possibly a continental based lorry, but at best it was a contracted firm on a shipping contract to a port and the driver had just been keeping his hours in check parked on a quiet road next to the A14, the police arent ever going to be rushing to do anything about that.

and whilst thats certainly at the extreme end of experiences, I had two really close passes last week on my commute to work, both I felt I had to steer left on a completely straight piece of road to avoid instinctively from being clipped by a passing wingmirror on the handlebars, and both seemed totally unnecessarily close, and when I get to work Im then actually beating myself up for why am I putting myself through that kind of stuff just to ride a bike, because that kind of experience doesnt make me feel particularly great at all, 2 close encounters before a coffee is not really how I like to start my day, and I know I can just get in my in car and drive to work reasonably relaxed and feel much safer.

whereas I was thinking as I was about to cycle home, Im just praying to ride home in reasonable peace and not have someone in a car try to assault me, and Ive been commuting regularly by bike for nearly a decade now, Id consider myself to be fairly toughened up by all the stuff Ive put up with in that time, and yet even I still have major doubts about why Im doing it sometimes

so when people ask why dont woman ride more often, its because I find as a woman certainly, though I dont know if gender is anything to do with it or not, but stuff like those close passes can be very challenging to cope with on an ongoing basis, and I know when I chat about it with friends, they all think you have to be slightly crazy to put up with it.

so how on earth are you supposed to get someone who hasnt ridden a bike since they were probably in primary school back on the roads in that kind of environment ? drive and you feel safe, ride a bike and chances are at least once a week youll be made to fear you are about to get hit by a tonne of metal.

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Re: What is stopping women from cycling?

Postby brynpoeth » 12 Jun 2018, 4:39am

Significant that religion and prayer are mentioned above I think
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pjclinch
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Re: What is stopping women from cycling?

Postby pjclinch » 12 Jun 2018, 9:34am

awavey wrote:so when people ask why dont woman ride more often, its because I find as a woman certainly, though I dont know if gender is anything to do with it or not, but stuff like those close passes can be very challenging to cope with on an ongoing basis, and I know when I chat about it with friends, they all think you have to be slightly crazy to put up with it.

so how on earth are you supposed to get someone who hasnt ridden a bike since they were probably in primary school back on the roads in that kind of environment ? drive and you feel safe, ride a bike and chances are at least once a week youll be made to fear you are about to get hit by a tonne of metal.


While there are far more men than women cycling in the UK it's worth remembering that it's still the case that not that many men cycle in the UK either, and the sort of thing you describe above is a lot of why that is. Gender may be something to do with why it's a majority of men that make up most of the ranks of Enthusiasts that buck the overall trend and ride much in the UK, but on the whole not that many people of either sex do and a toxic environment is the dominant reason.

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Re: What is stopping women from cycling?

Postby Tangled Metal » 12 Jun 2018, 10:27am

Is there a statistic of cycle commuting take up for different income levels anywhere?

Whilst not gender related factor I sometimes feel that people's financial status plays into bike use a bit. I happen to work with low paid and cycling to work or car sharing is the easy they mostly commute. I think at least half cars in the carpark are full when they came in and left. The other half were management and one person occupancy.

The childcare issues related to cycle use for commuting PJC kind of dismissed is similar to the concerns my partner has. It's not just safety concerns, logistics or routes. It's timings too. It's not easy getting young kids ready, onto bikes and to school before heading off to your work. It eats into your time somewhere. Less sleep, less time available for work = part time. It's accessibility to the workplace too. This is gender issue and it's through the UK workplace. Not very many places are family friendly. Not an issue for many men but for many women it is.

The other side of this workplace issue is men can rarely get family friendly employment. My employers are big in family but even the legal entitlements such as rights to an amount of unpaid leave up to the child's 18tg birthday isn't popular. If I asked to go part time I'd get the reply "do you want the job or not?". I'd not get part time leave, not because of workplace reasons I might at but gender reasons since women have always had the opportunity to take part time working for childcare. Totally flexible that way. Illegal? Certainly but we all know law isn't accessible to all and companies get away things a lot.

BTW the bosses / owners will all say they managed but the truth is their partners managed. Gave up work or went part time for low pay.

It sounds like I've gone really far off topic here but IMHO the whole issue with cycling is tied heavily into our culture and especially the culture of our society. Netherlands manages so much not because cycling is normal but because they have a society that chose to go down the way they did. They're certainly more family friendly throughout the whole of society. From safer roads for children to better childcare options even better family friendly employment. Scandinavian nations even more so.

So I'm sorry but it can be done but not with our society's structure and culture. We've got to high a hill to climb one family at a time but I do see PJC's family as the lead in what should be normal in the UK too. Kudos for managing it.

PS through academic contracts my partner is able to manage it (p/t only). My son cycles a couple of blocks down side streets to school. She then goes home to work and occasionally cycles on to work. Three hour round trip!

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Re: What is stopping women from cycling?

Postby reohn2 » 12 Jun 2018, 10:56am

pjclinch wrote:
awavey wrote:so when people ask why dont woman ride more often, its because I find as a woman certainly, though I dont know if gender is anything to do with it or not, but stuff like those close passes can be very challenging to cope with on an ongoing basis, and I know when I chat about it with friends, they all think you have to be slightly crazy to put up with it.

so how on earth are you supposed to get someone who hasnt ridden a bike since they were probably in primary school back on the roads in that kind of environment ? drive and you feel safe, ride a bike and chances are at least once a week youll be made to fear you are about to get hit by a tonne of metal.


While there are far more men than women cycling in the UK it's worth remembering that it's still the case that not that many men cycle in the UK either, and the sort of thing you describe above is a lot of why that is. Gender may be something to do with why it's a majority of men that make up most of the ranks of Enthusiasts that buck the overall trend and ride much in the UK, but on the whole not that many people of either sex do and a toxic environment is the dominant reason.

Pete.

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Re: What is stopping women from cycling?

Postby jgurney » 12 Jun 2018, 11:35am

reohn2 wrote:My elderest daughter (45) escorts her two youngest to school by bike and has been accosted by other parent's at the school gates on a couple of occasions for "putting her children's lives at risk" by riding with them to school


It's the drivers who are doing that ......

reohn2
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Re: What is stopping women from cycling?

Postby reohn2 » 12 Jun 2018, 12:58pm

jgurney wrote:
reohn2 wrote:My elderest daughter (45) escorts her two youngest to school by bike and has been accosted by other parent's at the school gates on a couple of occasions for "putting her children's lives at risk" by riding with them to school


It's the drivers who are doing that ......

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The utility cyclist
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Re: What is stopping women from cycling?

Postby The utility cyclist » 13 Jun 2018, 3:32am

pjclinch wrote:I think some of those are perceptual/cultural more than practical (that's not to suggest they're not real barriers, but perhaps not quite the same barriers people thought they were dealing with).

NL isn't that different from here in that mums will tend to do more childcare than dads, yet actually more women cycle in NL than men. It's certainly more likely you'd have a sensible cycling route to school there, but plenty of British schools are quite bike accessible, but not bike accessed.

With the right bike you can take all the stuff (and children) required.

Showers are much talked about here because commute riding has a lot of crossover with sports riders, but again NL proves you don't have to work up a sweat. I used to deliver my 2 children to primary school on a 3-seater bike and then continue to work. I never had to take a shower or change when I arrived (and that's a 20 Kg bike up a fair sized hill, I just took my time in a low gear). And as with the cargo bike, electric options now available can be very helpful.

Skirts may not be as practical as trousers or shorts for riding, but it's certainly not impossible. The typical Dutch omafiets has a skirt-guard as standard, but they're generally not necessary. My daughter often used a dress or skirt at primary (though trousers were an option she sometimes went with) and it was never an issue on the 3 seater, and once she'd graduated to riding herself it was still no problem:

You can also see in that they both have their bags with them, though the 3-seater had room for 4 so I could take their bags and still have plenty of space for any luggage I needed myself.

There will be numerous individual cases where a car is simply a better practical tool, but for many I suspect much of the problem is that with such a car-centric culture many people don't realise that a bike and everyday practical transport have quite the overlap they do. My wife or I rode the kids to school, and then escorted them (before leaving it all t them) not because we're eco-warrior bike activists, but because it was much less of a chore than driving and as a side-effect did everyone a bit of good. But this was easy for us, we already cycled by default so we knew it's not hard. The hardest thing is change, especially from a general default option. Why do so many people do the school run by car? Because everyone else does, that's what we do in the UK...

Pete.

Do you actually really believe that, sorry but I don't. I think there is a significant difference between our cultures and on many levels. Crime is massively greater here, drugs offences are 14x greater, overall crime is 31% higher, assault, robbery, rape all significantly higher (as a % not just outright number) in the UK. I think their social structure is significantly different (and better) than ours.

Then they have a Royal family whom the vast majority respect and adore, there was a video not that long back of the princess cycling to school, on her own, in her ordinary clothes on an ordinary bike, no hi-vis, no noddy hat, that role model for girls is nowhere in the UK.

The Dutch PM even cycles, again, no noddy hat, no his vis, the last time we had anything akin to that was Boris J before he went up the political ladder (but was forced to wear a plastic hat due to pressure) and so stopped, Cameron cycled maybe a few times in London but had hi-vis sash and hat, okay he was photographed socially cycling but again that was before he went up the ladder, both of them were generally ridiculed for cycling in any case and probably told not to cycle to work by security/plod because it's too dangerous, when in fact you're probably more at risk in a car being driven in London if the fear is an attack by some nutjob.

Too many in this country are the dregs and they breed, the media stirs up rubbish and hate crime occurs as a consequence of that media dirge, added in to which we have a government that is simply not interested in addressing the major problems that face our nation, uses the victim blame card all too readily and allow machinery operated by humans in public that kill and maim by the tens of thousands annually whilst doing sugar all to change that. I don't see that in the Netherlands by their government, police etc, that's a different culture/way of thinking that is rooted in the majority, not the extreme minority here.

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Re: What is stopping women from cycling?

Postby Wanlock Dod » 13 Jun 2018, 7:54am

Women shun cycling because of safety, not helmet hair

Ironically there also seems to be an article in the Telegraph about how ladies should just ignore the danger and close passes and get on with it, which seems to have been sponsored by a motor manufacturer.

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Re: What is stopping women from cycling?

Postby pjclinch » 13 Jun 2018, 10:01am

The utility cyclist wrote:
pjclinch wrote:
NL isn't that different from here in that mums will tend to do more childcare than dads


Do you actually really believe that, sorry but I don't. I think there is a significant difference between our cultures and on many levels. Crime is massively greater here, drugs offences are 14x greater, overall crime is 31% higher, assault, robbery, rape all significantly higher (as a % not just outright number) in the UK. I think their social structure is significantly different (and better) than ours.

Then they have a Royal family whom the vast majority respect and adore, there was a video not that long back of the princess cycling to school, on her own, in her ordinary clothes on an ordinary bike, no hi-vis, no noddy hat, that role model for girls is nowhere in the UK.

The Dutch PM even cycles, again, no noddy hat, no his vis, the last time we had anything akin to that was Boris J before he went up the political ladder (but was forced to wear a plastic hat due to pressure) and so stopped, Cameron cycled maybe a few times in London but had hi-vis sash and hat, okay he was photographed socially cycling but again that was before he went up the ladder, both of them were generally ridiculed for cycling in any case and probably told not to cycle to work by security/plod because it's too dangerous, when in fact you're probably more at risk in a car being driven in London if the fear is an attack by some nutjob.

Too many in this country are the dregs and they breed, the media stirs up rubbish and hate crime occurs as a consequence of that media dirge, added in to which we have a government that is simply not interested in addressing the major problems that face our nation, uses the victim blame card all too readily and allow machinery operated by humans in public that kill and maim by the tens of thousands annually whilst doing sugar all to change that. I don't see that in the Netherlands by their government, police etc, that's a different culture/way of thinking that is rooted in the majority, not the extreme minority here.


Deary me. Like I said, NL isn't that different from here in that mums will tend to do more childcare than dads. That they have more tulips and windmills etc. as well isn't what I was addressing.
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