Slipping freehub

[edocaster]

Hello all.

Last year my freehub (Shimano FH M570, if I recall) started sticking. So I flushed it and re-lubed the freehub body with Finish Line Wet lube (it was all I had to hand, and it could get through without disassembling the freehub body).

It worked fine all year, but now I'm getting hub slippage, possibly coinciding with cold weather.

Shall I reflush it, and do I need something thinner than Finish Line Wet?

Or should I just buy a new Freehub body? Something like this seems to be a modern replacement: http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/shim ... -prod78991

...or do I actually need to find NOS?

And if I buy a new freehub body, do I still need to lube the freehub mechanism, or is it pre-packed?

[Brucey]

...Last year my freehub (Shimano FH M570, if I recall) started sticking. So I flushed it and re-lubed the freehub body with Finish Line Wet lube (it was all I had to hand, and it could get through without disassembling the freehub body).

It worked fine all year, but now I'm getting hub slippage, possibly coinciding with cold weather.

I have seen quite a lot of mechanisms become gunged up when they have been lubricated with that stuff. It must react with something else to create the gunge somehow, but I have yet to find out for sure what it is exactly. I would advise anyone who is thinking of putting it into a hub to think twice about it and use something else.

Shall I reflush it, and do I need something thinner than Finish Line Wet?

you have nothing to lose by trying.

I would suggest that you flush with GT85 (or similar) and lube with gear oil.

If it is gungy enough remove the freehub body from the hub, pick out the rear seal, and flush it through; the gunge will soften and be carried through the freehub body.

New freehub bodies have the most parsimonious smear of pathetic grease imaginable inside. They do not resist the UK winter weather at all well in standard condition. If you do buy a new one, lube it just the same as a used one, I.e copiously with gear oil , and/or a decent SFG.

cheers

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,
Its worked so far "Any oil is better than no oil"

But I would imagine that its a bit runny / not suitable for a freehub.

But use anything to save the freehub if its now slipping, you may save it yet!

I am not au fait with that hub but you need it to be rubber sealed as not for the lube to migrate.
Grease works fine, but disassembly will be needed.

The life of a freehub may depend on its use environment, and how lazy the rider preferring to long periods of freewheeling

[reohn2]

...Last year my freehub (Shimano FH M570, if I recall) started sticking. So I flushed it and re-lubed the freehub body with Finish Line Wet lube (it was all I had to hand, and it could get through without disassembling the freehub body).

It worked fine all year, but now I'm getting hub slippage, possibly coinciding with cold weather.

I have seen quite a lot of mechanisms become gunged up when they have been lubricated with that stuff. It must react with something else to create the gunge somehow, but I have yet to find out for sure what it is exactly. I would advise anyone who is thinking of putting it into a hub to think twice about it and use something else.

Shall I reflush it, and do I need something thinner than Finish Line Wet?

you have nothing to lose by trying.

I would suggest that you flush with GT85 (or similar) and lube with gear oil.

If it is gungy enough remove the freehub body from the hub, pick out the rear seal, and flush it through; the gunge will soften and be carried through the freehub body.

New freehub bodies have the most parsimonious smear of pathetic grease imaginable inside. They do not resist the UK winter weather at all well in standard condition. If you do buy a new one, lube it just the same as a used one, I.e copiously with gear oil , and/or a decent SFG.

cheers

I'd suggest GT85 won't shift Finnishline wet lube(I'm convinced it's only chainsaw oil and is very sticky and hard to shift).I'd be tempted after removing the rubber dust seal,emersing the freehub body in White Spirit for 24 hours,draining it off and then the GT85 followed by gearoil or even ordinary engine oil.

[edocaster]

Thanks all. Last time I remember a little play in the freehub. How long do they last? I've maybe put 5k miles through this since 2014, but the hub may have been in use since 2001. Do the springs weaken?

I may get a new freehub body just for peace of mind, as landing on the crown jewels is getting old...

[reohn2]

Thanks all. Last time I remember a little play in the freehub. How long do they last? I've maybe put 5k miles through this since 2014, but the hub may have been in use since 2001. Do the springs weaken?

I may get a new freehub body just for peace of mind, as landing on the crown jewels is getting old...

17 years use I suppose is a long time,though I wouldn't worry about a little play in the bearings.Shimano freehubs tend to be bombproof and last a looonnngggg time as a rule.

[Brucey]

there is a single spring that works two pawls. I have very occasionally seen a spring go weak through corrosion but not otherwise.

Needless to say, to get a slippage requires that both pawls go sticky. During cleaning you can usually hear if the both pawls are working normally; there are ~18 teeth in the ratchet and the two pawls are meant to engage simultaneously.

In reality if you turn the freewheel body backwards very slowly you will hear the click-click of both pawls moving separately. If you hear this you can be sure that the pawls are working correctly.

You can of course adjust the freehub body shims to remove free play. It will run for a long time with a little free play but it is better without. Unless the freehub body is a complete rust-fest inside, the spring is probably OK. If you want to replace it, even though the correct shimano one is not available, you can; one from a campag/fulcrum freewheel body will usually fit OK.

cheers

[Gattonero]

...Last year my freehub (Shimano FH M570, if I recall) started sticking. So I flushed it and re-lubed the freehub body with Finish Line Wet lube (it was all I had to hand, and it could get through without disassembling the freehub body).

It worked fine all year, but now I'm getting hub slippage, possibly coinciding with cold weather.

I have seen quite a lot of mechanisms become gunged up when they have been lubricated with that stuff. It must react with something else to create the gunge somehow, but I have yet to find out for sure what it is exactly. I would advise anyone who is thinking of putting it into a hub to think twice about it and use something else....

You must be using a different product then. I know a shop that has being using that lubricant for over a decade, which means probably 20 thousand repairs (!), and never ever experienced this.
I too use that lubricant for my chains, freehubs and even track hubs. Never, ever, ever seen that lubricant to "gum up" or doing something like that, not even in bikes that had been stored in the shed and not used for 10 years

In regards of the freehub, it must be the pawls getting offset due to a broken edge, or the spring has become weaker and is either rubbing against the ratchet ring or it just does not get the pawls to move up.
If the race happens to be in good conditions, it's worth keeping the freehub. In those conditions, ideally once could open the freehub and keep the spares, but if you can't then go for a new freehub but keep the old one just in case!

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,
Shimano might not use enough grease in their freehubs according to Brucey, but send an email to shimano saying you recommend using said stuff as a service lube for freehubs.

Brucey recommends a Semi Fluid Grease, which satisfies the high pressure on the pawls and slow running balls.

Whats your stuff in a little bottle say it is?

I could not find on the website for finishline what they recommend for freehubs?

"That lubricant" You don't make clear if its the runny stuff or some other compound.....

[Brucey]

...Last year my freehub (Shimano FH M570, if I recall) started sticking. So I flushed it and re-lubed the freehub body with Finish Line Wet lube (it was all I had to hand, and it could get through without disassembling the freehub body).

It worked fine all year, but now I'm getting hub slippage, possibly coinciding with cold weather.

I have seen quite a lot of mechanisms become gunged up when they have been lubricated with that stuff. It must react with something else to create the gunge somehow, but I have yet to find out for sure what it is exactly. I would advise anyone who is thinking of putting it into a hub to think twice about it and use something else....

You must be using a different product then. I know a shop that has being using that lubricant for over a decade, which means probably 20 thousand repairs (!), and never ever experienced this.....

That stuff definitely (and often) reacts with something to create a gungy mess. By contrast with your experience I have seen enough gungy messes created by this stuff that I can usually tell if someone has been using FL wet as chain lube or not. In fairness most of them don't do much cleaning either, which I am sure is part of the problem with exposed mechanisms, but that can't be the whole story.
Once the process of gungification starts it usually tears any lip seal to pieces and shortly after that it is 'game over', usually for the hub or freehub.

cheers

[Brucey]

BTW as a 'rescue lubricant' for a sticky body, ATF usually works OK. It is good for flushing, but not necessarily ideal in the long run (it may cause seals to swell amongst other things). It has a high detergent value and usually softens and eventually removes sticky grease residues.

If you use oil/ATF, don't be shy with it; in a few instances I have know a mechanism free off, and then the (small amount of) oil/ATF to soak into the remaining dried grease, rendering the mixture (and the pawls) sticky again. To be reasonably sure that this isn't going to happen, you need to use a lot of it, much more than you might think is necessary.

Just add a load of oil to the RH bearing and work the freewheel mechanism by spinning the wheel and holding the freehub body until the pawls start to free off. The advantage of trying this is that if it works, you can start riding the bike again straight away. [if it doesn't start to free off the pawls, you need to wait longer or use something else to penetrate and soften the gungy mess that is undoubtedly inside.]

Provided it doesn't leak out too quickly or cause the seals to swell it is OK to use the hub with oil/ATF lubricating everything for a week or two. Then relube with a better lubricant, eg SFG. Cleaning up the workings will be much easier once the crud has been softened in oil for that long.

FWIW if the lube is sticky enough (but not evenly distributed) inside a freehub body then the pawls may be dragged round during freewheeling, so that the mechanism won't freewheel properly. If this is happening the freewheel will 'snatch' occasionally in an alarming fashion during freewheeling, regardless of whether the ratchet appears to work OK or not. Often this problem is completely resolved by simply adding oil to the freehub body.

NB the most common pattern of shimano freehub body has two pawls engaged at the same time (some have four pawls which engage two at a time) but some off-brand MTB freehubs have three pawls that are meant to engage at the same time, which could be stronger. However when the mechanism is new or if there is any free play in the freehub bearings, it is much more likely that not all the pawls will engage at the same time, and any possible advantage is lost.

If you do strip the freehub body, it isn't a bad idea to note which pawl came from which pawl pocket and to replace them in the same positions; they wear to very slightly different lengths and are more likely to engage simultaneously if they are put back in the same places.

If you made a list of desirable things in a conventional freehub body, the top two would be that

1) the thing should be properly lubricated and
2) that there should be little or no play in the freehub bearings

These things come well ahead of whether (say) the freehub body has shiny new balls inside it or not; I would far sooner have a rumbly (but play free) freehub body than one that has free play in it.

cheers

[Gattonero]

...

That stuff definitely (and often) reacts with something to create a gungy mess. By contrast with your experience I have seen enough gungy messes created by this stuff that I can usually tell if someone has been using FL wet as chain lube or not. In fairness most of them don't do much cleaning either, which I am sure is part of the problem with exposed mechanisms, but that can't be the whole story.
Once the process of gungification starts it usually tears any lip seal to pieces and shortly after that it is 'game over', usually for the hub or freehub.

cheers

Most certainly Finish Line Wet green) oil does not react with Shimano original grease/lubricant in various stages of use.
Countless freehubs and freewheels I have lubricated with it. I've worn down no less than 4 Shimano single freewheels always lubricated with that oil, one of them had been stored many years in a shed: not a single problem.
The shop you visit must be named "the bike destroyers" or something similar!
If that oil was such a danger, the shop I visit must have a mile long queue of angry people, giving that I'm told they use about 3lt of that oil per year!

[Abradable Chin]

If you want an example of oil gunging up, I had a bottle of an environmentally friendly wet chain lube with 100% natural ingredient that was sent as a sample with a purchase. It claims to be made from neither petrochemicals, nor palm oil, nor teflon, and indeed, it smells of pine trees. The bottle has been open for a few year, and when I went to use it, it would no longer pour. There was a brown plug in the nozzle where it has oxidised/polymerized like linseed oil does. The bulk fluid is runny with a greenish tint. We might see more of this sort of thing in products in the future.

[Gattonero]

What is the brand, and what are the conditions of storage? That could be interesting.

BTW, if there's an oil that I won't recommend for this reason, is the Phil Wood "tenacious" oil. Is very thick to begin with, and it seems to harden up after long time. I don't have hundreds of use of it, but those few I've done and seen are enough to convince me to not use it on a chain, cables or other components. In fact, I'd use it only for threads, or spokes (may act as mild threadlocker!)

[Brucey]

regarding PW tenacious oil, I have seen seal swelling in some parts that I think had been oiled with that previously.

Like most lubes it has its place, but that place needs to be carefully chosen.

It is tempting to think of oils as inert and unreactive; nothing could be further from the truth.

Most oils (esp those that are organic or part-organic) will react, oxidise and/or polymerise under the right circumstances. This is used as the hardening system in some paints and varnishes. It is also how linseed oil works on wood. In some cases exposure to air is enough, in others another chemical agent is required for the reaction to go at any speed.

A lot of 'wet' chain lubricants use this (or similar) property to usefully provide a corrosion resistant film over the working parts of the chain. If this film is allowed to build up it can (obviously) form a sticky gunge. If you clean everything regularly or don't see conditions that cause the worst reactions to occur then it may not trouble you greatly on a chain.

However it also means that using a wet chain lube as replacement for a lubricating oil in parts with lip seals is asking for trouble; if the lube starts to react or polymerise then it will quickly tear the seals to bits etc. It is a much better idea to use a lube that is meant for this purpose, e.g. a synthetic gear oil.

cheers