Changes to aluminum frames?

[chocjohn9]

Quite a few times over the past year or two, I've read about the aluminium transformation, from bone cruncher to a good material to make frames from. I've been told to forget all past thoughts. Apparently, miracles have been performed by the manufacturers. But, the detail is lacking. Is it manufacturing techniques? Quality control? Aluminium itself? Design? Or is it simply a marketing fight back against carbon?

Meanwhile, Koga and Santos have discontinued their steel frames and now offer only aluminium. Some Dawes Galaxy's are aluminium. Cannondale has reintroduced their tourer. The Trek 920 exists....

Has a miracle really happened? Increasingly, it is tricky to work out what is true and what is marketing. Has anyone changed their mind on the back of this? Anyone out there with old vs new experience?

[Mick F]

Not new, but I had for a short time, a Vitus Duralinox frame.
Supremely comfortable, and supremely light.
Since sold on these very pages.

Some folk said it was bit "noodle-y" but there was a famous racing cyclist who used one. Sean Kelly?

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8111
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8202

[ANTONISH]

Not new, but I had for a short time, a Vitus Duralinox frame.
Supremely comfortable, and supremely light.
Since sold on these very pages.

Some folk said it was bit "noodle-y" but there was a famous racing cyclist who used one. Sean Kelly?

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8111
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8202

A very nice looking frame the Vitus- I think ALAN frames were also considered "noodle -y"
This suggests the opposite of a harsh ride - it's all in the build.

[reohn2]

I'm inclined to think it's markeing lead and could,be linked to low cost aluminium on the market(?).I've owned seven alu framed bikes,three tandems and four solo.
Three of the solos were mid to lower end DB 7005,one Kona and one Claud Butler and one Aeron(Ridley),one was a Cannondale T800 tourer three with steel forks the Aeron had a CF fork,all rode a bit solid and plank-like,lacking a certain in definable quality that you get with a half decent steel frame.
They were OK upto about 60 or 70 miles but over that and I began to get sore knees and felt 'beat up' after a ride.Three out of the four were ridden predominently on supple 35 or 38mm tyes.The Aeron was an Audax type bike that had clearences for 28mm tyres and was shockingly harsh on a long ride.
The tandems are/were one Cannondale Road(USA built frameset),one KHS childback and one Circe with 20in wheels.I can only give a considered opinion on the Cannondale because it's the only one we've put any serious mileage on,but I can say it was our favourite tandem and that's in direct comparison to our Santana Arriva,Columbus steel tandem which was close but we preferred the Cannondale.
I believe Cannondales are 6061alu tubing.

Unless alu has had somekind of magical technical inovation I can't see much has changed in the past few years.

The Alu Vitus MickF mentions was indeed ridden and preferred by SK throughout most of his illustrious carreer but I did hear him say in commentary once that he could only get one racing season out a Vitus Alu frame before it lost it's spring and usefulness.

My 2d's worth

EDIT,to add that all my/our alu bikes were built with oversized tubing and not at all like the early Vitus frames used by SK.

[Brucey]

Quite a few times over the past year or two, I've read about the aluminium transformation, from bone cruncher to a good material to make frames from. I've been told to forget all past thoughts. Apparently, miracles have been performed by the manufacturers......

....Has a miracle really happened

No miracles, except perhaps the miracle of never-ending B.S...... [Q. why is it that the only truly inexhaustible thing is the one the human race needs least....? ]

There are (in essence) three main sorts of aluminium frame

1) skinny tubes, old, typically bonded together. Net result; a comfy frame but incredibly flexy (if there is any weight saving over steel; I can explain why if you like)

2) welded aluminium, oversized tubes, mid weight. Net result; a ridiculously stiff (and usually horrible unless fat tyres are used) frame. May well break if a strong rider gives it a lot of treatment.

3) welded aluminium, oversized/shaped tubes, light weight. Net result; a frame that has some flex rather than none. Almost certainly this type of frame won't last very long if you ride hard/much.

The reason for the existence of the third sort of frame is twofold;

-first, customer's expectations are different now; a lot of riders think it is OK if a bike only lasts a few years because they 'must have the latest thing' and they just buy a new one. If the frame lasts the warranty period they are happy, if it breaks they get another one.
- second, a good number of buyers suffer from 'gym membership delusion', and don't actually ride the things much, so they are not going to break them.

The manufacturers know how many frames are likely to fail and if they are cheap enough they just don't care; they tug their forelocks and say 'goodness me, that is unusual' (whether it is or not) and the customer gets a new frame. Often the dealer is left carrying the can for the build labour, whole or in part.

A local dealer for 'a very well-known brand' is so cheesed off with the breakage rate on their (class 3) alu frames that he is looking for another brand to sell. Thing is, if these frames are rubbish, so will half the frames on sale with any brand writ upon them....

cheers

[Si]

I remember, years ago before it went all sportive, c+ did a frame stiffness test on several frames made of different materials. Their findings were, surprisingly to many, that build makes much more difference than material, with the stiffest frame being one of the steel ones.

Are Alu frames ridiculously stiff compared to steel (which of course is "real")? Well, if you do read reviews you'll get all this stuff about how this particular frame accelerates like a rocket and that one feels like an old armchair. I read a review recently where you'd be forgiven for believing that carbon is supremely fast and steal is like riding through treacle based on the two bikes tested. Mmmm, nothing to do with the fact that one had 23mm slick types at around 120psi, and the other 1.5inch treaded tyres at around 50psi then? Nope, all down to the frame material.

[Marcus Aurelius]

There are too many variables involved in the experience of riding a bicycle, to nail one particular attribute, to a specific component. But if you keep absolutely everything the same( tricky to do at the best of times ) and change the one thing you are trying to ascertain the effect of, you can get an idea of the various components differences. But it’s only an idea, because something you thought was constant, has actually changed more significantly than you assumed, in between changing the component you were trying to test. Bike testing / component comparison tests are fun fun fun.

[foxyrider]

The real difference that Brucey hasn't mentioned is moulded aluminium tubing which is where the real change has occurred. Moulded tubes can be any shape you like, can be thinner walled and custom sized for each frame size which allows better, more comfortable frames to be built. Weight of these 'moulded' frames can be similar to carbon.

I have a 'moulded' tube Focus that is more comfortable to ride than any of my steel bikes whereas the old 'tubed' Al frame I have is a decidedly harsh ride.

The issue a lot of brands now have with steel is finding a factory to produce the frames.

[reohn2]

The real difference that Brucey hasn't mentioned is moulded aluminium tubing which is where the real change has occurred. Moulded tubes can be any shape you like, can be thinner walled and custom sized for each frame size which allows better, more comfortable frames to be built. Weight of these 'moulded' frames can be similar to carbon.

I have a 'moulded' tube Focus that is more comfortable to ride than any of my steel bikes whereas the old 'tubed' Al frame I have is a decidedly harsh ride.

The issue a lot of brands now have with steel is finding a factory to produce the frames.

Are these 'moulded' alu ubes what is termed by manufacturers as 'hydro formed'?

[Brucey]

The real difference that Brucey hasn't mentioned is moulded aluminium tubing which is where the real change has occurred....

Are these 'moulded' alu ubes what is termed by manufacturers as 'hydro formed'?

yes that is what is meant, (although it is not the only method) as I mentioned in category 3, i.e. 'shaped'

cheers

[reohn2]

The real difference that Brucey hasn't mentioned is moulded aluminium tubing which is where the real change has occurred....

Are these 'moulded' alu ubes what is termed by manufacturers as 'hydro formed'?

yes that is what is meant, (although it is not the only method) as I mentioned in category 3, i.e. 'shaped'

cheers

Thanks for that,I did think that's what was meant.

[chocjohn9]

Thanks for everyones input.

I agree that comparing exactly the same, for example, aluminium and steel frames is near as impossible. I can not think of any manufacturer who makes both.

Once I bought a Condor Heritage and Tempo. Almost the same - except for the wheels which taught me that wheels make a HUGE difference! I didn't realise beforehand.

[Bmblbzzz]

I used to have an mtb with shaped aluminium frame. Very light, even with suspension forks, no visible flex in bottom bracket when pedalling, unlike most steel frames I've had, and still going strong after nine years mtbing and touring when it sadly got stolen. It wasn't very comfy - comfortable enough for a day-long ride, up to 70 miles when touring - but comfort is more a factor of contact points than frame. Straight bars didn't suit me, even with bar ends; should have changed them really.

[francovendee]

I found Brucey's breakdown on alluminium frames very interesting. My frame is normal size tubing but it's welded.
It's long past it's sell by date and I look for cracks on a weekly basis.
I really like the ride of this bike and I'll be sad to see it go.
My son's old bike, which I ride from time to time, is of the fat tube variety and I find it very tiring to ride.

[bigjim]

I don't think it is possible to categorically state one frame material is better than another. There are just so many variables to affect ones decision. Tyres, wheels, saddle, frame design and of course rider weight. All my bikes are steel. I've stayed away from aluminium because of it's reputation for harshness. Recently I bought for silly money a as new Aluminium framed bike. I bought it for the parts. I thought I would ride it around for a while. Hell! It is so smooth! I really enjoy it. It's good fun, very responsive and I've used it all through the winter for local and all day club rides. Maybe my almost 15 stone frame smooths things out. My steel bikes feel softer not smoother. Hard to describe. I ride full carbon in Mallorca which are great, but no better IMO, than my 531 steel road bikes. Anyway my bottom of the range smooth cheapo even has Ali forks. Ridiculous! Why isn't it a bone-jarring mess.