Live-in Care - Experiences? Seeking advice or thoughts

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531colin
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Re: Live-in Care - Experiences? Seeking advice or thoughts

Post by 531colin »

tod28 wrote:
531colin wrote:CQC can't supervise the agency.


Their role is not to supervise the agencies - that is for the providers (of the agencies). CQC are regulators - checking whether health and social care services comply with the Health & Social Care Act etc.


So, how do they do that?
The two incompetents I had the pleasure of meeting had "right of entry" into the place where I worked....a residential home for people with learning and other difficulties. They occupied the office/ sleepover room/ staffroom for the whole day, they upset the residents and some of the staff, and except maybe to look after their lunch better, they learned nothing from their day. I know this because I read their report. I could have given them more than one cast-iron reason to shut the place down; I didn't because some of us at the coalface did everything we could to give the residents a decent life. My experience of these places is that they don't run for the benefit of the people who live there, but for the benefit of the "manager". The shifts should reflect the residents' needs, not the managers requirements for child care.
To find out how a place really runs, you need to gain the respect and confidence of the staff, not come barging in like stormtroopers, picking up on trivia and missing the big picture.
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bovlomov
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Re: Live-in Care - Experiences? Seeking advice or thoughts

Post by bovlomov »

531colin wrote: I could have given them more than one cast-iron reason to shut the place down; I didn't because some of us at the coalface did everything we could to give the residents a decent life. My experience of these places is that they don't run for the benefit of the people who live there, but for the benefit of the "manager".

I've heard this many times. I suppose that closing residential care homes creates rather a headache (how do you rehouse all the clients?), so the CQC prefers to ignore structural bad practice, even when presented with evidence. Picking up the failings of individual staff is easier.
thirdcrank
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Re: Live-in Care - Experiences? Seeking advice or thoughts

Post by thirdcrank »

I'm not sure how the arithmetic for live-in care works out. Assuming the carers are paid the minimum hourly wage, rather than some ruse with au pairs or similar, there are 168 hours in a week and taking the hourly rate at a tenner - it will be more with on-costs - that's well over three grand a month. It's been pointed out that caring for a couple halves that figure per person, but all the other costs of running the household are to be met. Attendance allowance, if that's what they still call it will help, but there's still council tax, fuel bills and grub.

I would say that continuing to live at home as long as possible is the most likely to extend life, unless there's something like a fall. The economic staffing levels even in well run homes seem quickly to lead to "learned helplessness," immobility and rapid decline.
Flinders
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Re: Live-in Care - Experiences? Seeking advice or thoughts

Post by Flinders »

bovlomov wrote:
531colin wrote: I could have given them more than one cast-iron reason to shut the place down; I didn't because some of us at the coalface did everything we could to give the residents a decent life. My experience of these places is that they don't run for the benefit of the people who live there, but for the benefit of the "manager".

I've heard this many times. I suppose that closing residential care homes creates rather a headache (how do you rehouse all the clients?), so the CQC prefers to ignore structural bad practice, even when presented with evidence. Picking up the failings of individual staff is easier.


They can and do close care homes down- they closed one locally to us. It was horrible for the residents, because though there had been a warning to the owners to make changes, when the CQC were not satisfied with the progress of that, they shut the place down at very short notice. I don't know what was behind it, bar rumours, which I don't consider reliable either way. I can only imagine that the CQC had very serious concerns, as it meant dividing up couples and moving very vulnerable people a long way from their friends and families to get them a place, at least temporarily.

For what it's worth, I had contact with the CQC on another matter, and they were not only very kind and helpful, but they zoomed in on the problems I had identified straight away, refused to be fobbed off, lied to, or deflected by the hospital concerned (not and NHS one as it happens) and were very active in making the culprit organisation sort itself out. They were also the only organisation I dealt with through a two-year process that were any use whatsoever. I think it depends a lot on who you get.
Flinders
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Re: Live-in Care - Experiences? Seeking advice or thoughts

Post by Flinders »

thirdcrank wrote:I'm not sure how the arithmetic for live-in care works out. Assuming the carers are paid the minimum hourly wage, rather than some ruse with au pairs or similar, there are 168 hours in a week and taking the hourly rate at a tenner - it will be more with on-costs - that's well over three grand a month. It's been pointed out that caring for a couple halves that figure per person, but all the other costs of running the household are to be met. Attendance allowance, if that's what they still call it will help, but there's still council tax, fuel bills and grub.

I would say that continuing to live at home as long as possible is the most likely to extend life, unless there's something like a fall. The economic staffing levels even in well run homes seem quickly to lead to "learned helplessness," immobility and rapid decline.


A friend in medicine tells me that to cover a completely an intensive 24/7 job you need five people, allowing for holidays and sickness. So if you employ just one carer, you will certainly need to have other people doing shifts as well. We had a live-in carer fro a relative, but only for three days/nights a week. Family covered the rest. Which was, to say the least, difficult.
If ultimately someone will have to go into a care home, it can be worth considering the possibility that if you keep them at home for as long as possible, it may be too late for them to adjust to the home when they get there.
thirdcrank
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Re: Live-in Care - Experiences? Seeking advice or thoughts

Post by thirdcrank »

Flinders wrote: ... A friend in medicine tells me that to cover a completely an intensive 24/7 job you need five people, allowing for holidays and sickness. So if you employ just one carer, you will certainly need to have other people doing shifts as well. We had a live-in carer fro a relative, but only for three days/nights a week. Family covered the rest. Which was, to say the least, difficult.
If ultimately someone will have to go into a care home, it can be worth considering the possibility that if you keep them at home for as long as possible, it may be too late for them to adjust to the home when they get there.


After (what seemed like) a lifetime of shiftwork, I know only too well how many people you need to cover a post 24/7 and indeed 365 days a year, including B Hols and all the rest of it. My figure was intended to convey a bit of the cost of hourly cover, assuming somebody was able to do it that way. If they employed the people directly, there would be on-costa, hassle etc. OTOH, using an agency means all that's taken care of but the agency needs to make a profit.

Every person is different, of course, but some factors in care seem general. One is that the staff in care homes are at the bottom of the pecking order but subject to every sort of complaint from relatives. The result is that any hint of a health problem - and there are plenty in the elderly - is referred to the GP, whose usual solution is more medication. Care home staffing ratios are low, even in good places, so it's more convenient if residents sit still rather than wonder around. There's an increased risk of falls in the elderly so independent movement tends to be discouraged, increasing dependency and what I called "learned helplessness."

Obviously, people generally are only placed in care when they are deteriorating and this is increasingly so as costs increase. The days of relatively fit, young older men going into a residential home after the death of their wife simply because they are lost without a woman to cook and do the housework are gone. There's a question of cause and effect, therefore, when somebody's health declines rapidly in care.

As homes go, the one where my mother went first was excellent, but the things I've mentioned combined with her great age meant that eventually they could not cope with her and so sent her to A&E then refused to have her back. A few months later, she died a prolonged death when she was so physically tough that she effectively died of thirst. I've no complaint with any of the people who cared for my mother. It's the system, combined with the deterioration of a close family member. Had it been legally possible, if I'd been offered the chance to kill my mother painlessly myself I'd have taken it, in the certain knowledge that had she been asked to plan in her earlier years, that would have been her chosen end.

FWIW, I had no financial interest in my mother's will. The cost of her care was initially funded from her modest capital and the notional value of a shared-ownership housing association flat, but by the last few months her "wealth" was below the disregard and shared among her grandchildren after her death.
geocycle
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Re: Live-in Care - Experiences? Seeking advice or thoughts

Post by geocycle »

IIRC two years ago Care home costs in the York area were around £900 per week, live in care was about £1000 per week plus bills and expenses. We would have used an agency as they cover insurance, holiday and sickness cover. The main problem for us was the practicality of the house, if the carer had exclusive use of a bedroom there was nowhere left for family to stay. Care homes do get a very bad press but the one we chose was physically very good although the staff were very stretched. It’s an awful decision for families to take and getting the timing right is crucial.
Psamathe
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Re: Live-in Care - Experiences? Seeking advice or thoughts

Post by Psamathe »

geocycle wrote:IIRC two years ago Care home costs in the York area were around £900 per week, live in care was about £1000 per week plus bills and expenses. We would have used an agency as they cover insurance, holiday and sickness cover. The main problem for us was the practicality of the house, if the carer had exclusive use of a bedroom there was nowhere left for family to stay. Care homes do get a very bad press but the one we chose was physically very good although the staff were very stretched. It’s an awful decision for families to take and getting the timing right is crucial.

In my case it is for two people which in the care homes we've investigated is twice the price but would get a discount they have not yet got back to us with. On full price the live-in care is significantly cheaper but we are making sure we don't think about prices too much but initially what is best for those concerned - price being relevant only in looking at what options are "sustainable" (i.e. can continue for whatever timescales might be needed).

Ian
Vitara
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Re: Live-in Care - Experiences? Seeking advice or thoughts

Post by Vitara »

Discussion on the CQC (Care Quality Commission) role and effectiveness is interesting, but not particularly relevant to the OP's question, which was seeking feedback and opinion on Live in Carers.

As I've already stated it's an option which I have observed people using effectively. If I was personally choosing, and it was practical & financially viable, I would opt for Live in Care ahead of Residential Care. Having two people needing care, as in this scenario, probably makes the financial case much clearer.

While it is possible to make your own arrangements, using an agency should make things a lot easier in terms of the practicalities; employment checks, obtaining cover 7 days/week, problem solving, etc. & costs will be known and predictable. Any good Agency will be happy to discuss your requirements, complete and assessment and give advice. Prices should be broadly comparable & I would be wary of an Agency with rates that appear low - good quality Care does not come cheap.

You may get lucky and find an Agency that can provide the same Carers on a regular rotating basis, but in my experience the people who do Live In often move around. I don't think this need be a great problem, but some input from family may be needed for new Carers & something like a handover folder with key information will help.

The other thing to consider is that it sometimes takes 5-6 weeks for newly arranged carers, visiting or live in, to settle into a pattern. If things aren't right then do let the Agency know, they will want to resolve any problems, but it will help if you also allow a bedding in period and are able to work with the Agency and Carers rather than being confrontational.

Hope this helps & Best of Luck
Psamathe
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Re: Live-in Care - Experiences? Seeking advice or thoughts

Post by Psamathe »

Vitara wrote:Discussion on the CQC (Care Quality Commission) role and effectiveness is interesting, but not particularly relevant to the OP's question, which was seeking feedback and opinion on Live in Carers.

As I've already stated it's an option which I have observed people using effectively. If I was personally choosing, and it was practical & financially viable, I would opt for Live in Care ahead of Residential Care. Having two people needing care, as in this scenario, probably makes the financial case much clearer.

While it is possible to make your own arrangements, using an agency should make things a lot easier in terms of the practicalities; employment checks, obtaining cover 7 days/week, problem solving, etc. & costs will be known and predictable. Any good Agency will be happy to discuss your requirements, complete and assessment and give advice. Prices should be broadly comparable & I would be wary of an Agency with rates that appear low - good quality Care does not come cheap.

You may get lucky and find an Agency that can provide the same Carers on a regular rotating basis, but in my experience the people who do Live In often move around. I don't think this need be a great problem, but some input from family may be needed for new Carers & something like a handover folder with key information will help.

The other thing to consider is that it sometimes takes 5-6 weeks for newly arranged carers, visiting or live in, to settle into a pattern. If things aren't right then do let the Agency know, they will want to resolve any problems, but it will help if you also allow a bedding in period and are able to work with the Agency and Carers rather than being confrontational.

Hope this helps & Best of Luck

Many thanks. We are currently looking to try live-in rather than care home, in part because we [family] think it will be less of a culture shock to those being cared for and it part because should things improve then it is easier to return to something less intensive (e.g. visiting care). I'm the one providing 24/7 live-in care at present and my plan is that when the live-in carer arrives I will move to the sitting room sofa bed for a few days overlap so I can show where things are, what I am currently doing to help (more what those being care for like and don't like), etc.

I suspect there will be difficult times ahead as those being cared for are "set in their ways" and very resistant to even small change e.g. there are thick rigs in the bedroom which are trip hazards, have caused a fall in the past and make using a walking frame very difficult and I've suggested they are got rid of but it was rejected outright. Still, it's got to happen as I don't believe visiting care can provide adequate or safe cover (in that they can't do anything about what happens when they are not there).

I'm reading CQC reports but only to avoid those that are anything other than Good (i.e. ignore just treat any "bad" as an indication but not treating "good" as having any useful meaning).

Many thanks for all the comments - great help.

Ian
thirdcrank
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Re: Live-in Care - Experiences? Seeking advice or thoughts

Post by thirdcrank »

Psamathe wrote: ... I'm reading CQC reports but only to avoid those that are anything other than Good (i.e. ignore just treat any "bad" as an indication but not treating "good" as having any useful meaning). ...


This is only something I've read (Private Eye) but it's been suggested that the CQC doesn't link inspection reports on current providers with their predecessors, so if there's a bad report for XYZ Care Home, it can simply end its registration and restart as ABC Care Home with the same ownership and management. At that point the earlier report is archived and so not available to a member of the public doing this sort of check. There will then often be a delay before another inspection, which may well reveal things are no better. I don't keep back copies and I cannot remember if the CQC said it was changing anything as the reult of this exposure of an apparent gap in its procedures.

Beware of toothless watchdoggies giving spurious legitimacy to those under their remit.
Psamathe
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Re: Live-in Care - Experiences? Seeking advice or thoughts

Post by Psamathe »

thirdcrank wrote:
Psamathe wrote: ... I'm reading CQC reports but only to avoid those that are anything other than Good (i.e. ignore just treat any "bad" as an indication but not treating "good" as having any useful meaning). ...


This is only something I've read (Private Eye) but it's been suggested that the CQC doesn't link inspection reports on current providers with their predecessors, so if there's a bad report for XYZ Care Home, it can simply end its registration and restart as ABC Care Home with the same ownership and management. At that point the earlier report is archived and so not available to a member of the public doing this sort of check. There will then often be a delay before another inspection, which may well reveal things are no better. I don't keep back copies and I cannot remember if the CQC said it was changing anything as the reult of this exposure of an apparent gap in its procedures.

Beware of toothless watchdoggies giving spurious legitimacy to those under their remit.

Probably not a massive help but what I've been doing is checking the directors, what companies they are directors of (including resignations from other company directorships going back decades) - hopefully to check if they have a "chequered history" and if they have too many "other interests". One that is current favourite the directors have only ever been directors of the current company (no other historical or current other directorships).

Ian
Flinders
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Re: Live-in Care - Experiences? Seeking advice or thoughts

Post by Flinders »

thirdcrank wrote:
Psamathe wrote: ... I'm reading CQC reports but only to avoid those that are anything other than Good (i.e. ignore just treat any "bad" as an indication but not treating "good" as having any useful meaning). ...


This is only something I've read (Private Eye) but it's been suggested that the CQC doesn't link inspection reports on current providers with their predecessors, so if there's a bad report for XYZ Care Home, it can simply end its registration and restart as ABC Care Home with the same ownership and management. At that point the earlier report is archived and so not available to a member of the public doing this sort of check. There will then often be a delay before another inspection, which may well reveal things are no better. I don't keep back copies and I cannot remember if the CQC said it was changing anything as the reult of this exposure of an apparent gap in its procedures.

Beware of toothless watchdoggies giving spurious legitimacy to those under their remit.


I will see if I can find it in my back copies if I have a moment, but AFAIK you're right, in that if a care home changes hands, even if only nominally, the slate is, in effect, wiped clean- but IIRC there was at least a proposal that reports may be linked back to previous ones in the future. This may be something that is decided at a political level and not by the CQC, though. They do get blamed sometimes for things which are not of their choosing- on some issues (as I know for a fact) they have been as frustrated as the rest of us that they are not allowed to do things they would like to do. Watchdogs are sometimes made toothless, deliberately I suspect in some cases, by politicians. And it can be worth looking at which care home companies contribute to various parties and MPs. Likewise which private healthcare firms have financial links to MPs. Last time I looked about a third of MPs in one party had financial interests of one sort or another with private healthcare companies, and other parties were not much better. I refrain from saying which as I consider this a cross-party abuse.
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Cunobelin
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Re: Live-in Care - Experiences? Seeking advice or thoughts

Post by Cunobelin »

pwa wrote:
rjb wrote:If you employ a live in carer you may have to also provide a workplace pension. I don't know the rules but you will need to check.

If you become the "employer" you take responsibility for annual leave, sick pay and all the rest.


In most cases you will go through some form of "Provider"

They then take care of what is needed, DBS checks, BLS training, ensuring they are suitable qualified and experienced, Professional indemnity and all the other things that are required including pensions, sick pay etc
thirdcrank
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Re: Live-in Care - Experiences? Seeking advice or thoughts

Post by thirdcrank »

Flinders wrote: ... They do get blamed ...


My post was intended only to alert the OP to the matter, in that they are looking for reliable info and this may be a hole in the system.
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