Do the British not like winning?

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Tangled Metal
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Do the British not like winning?

Postby Tangled Metal » 5 Jul 2018, 12:31pm

Something mentioned in the Froome thread made me wonder about the nature of people's attitude to success in individual nations. Do some countries very behind their best athletes and crave success but others prefer the plucky underdog to get their chance.

A bit of context. A poster put forward the idea that Froome should step aside as sky team leader in favour of Thomas.

I'm guessing the theory could be like a racing stable not putting desert orchid in for the big races but letting a lesser horse have a go. Just like an experienced trainer can spot talent like red rum, desert orchid, etc. In cycling they know who the top talent is.

To me it seems like success isn't the main criteria in top level sport to some followers. That's success but not by any means of course but so far Froome hasn't been caught out going down the other means route.

Is it time to support Froome, sky and the best tour cyclist of his generation? Is it time to be American, Australian but especially French about him and get behind him for more success?

brynpoeth
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Re: Do the British not like winning?

Postby brynpoeth » 5 Jul 2018, 12:37pm

Germany has been quite good at winning too, just had a quiz where we puzzled out the four times they won the WC: 1954 1974 1990 2014.. :wink:

I think the Laterne Rouge winners should get more attention
Cycling? Of course, but it is far better on a Gillott.. Alternative facts welcome

Tangled Metal
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Re: Do the British not like winning?

Postby Tangled Metal » 5 Jul 2018, 12:42pm

There's cheating going on to win the lanterne rouge you know. Including one prominent candidate in the past puncturing his own tyre to lose time.

I bet you didn't expect that!

Tangled Metal
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Re: Do the British not like winning?

Postby Tangled Metal » 5 Jul 2018, 12:43pm

BTW typing in lanterne into my phone I got a very long welsh word starting with double L. I should have made note of it and asked you what it was (and how to pronounce it too :wink:).

brynpoeth
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Re: Do the British not like winning?

Postby brynpoeth » 5 Jul 2018, 12:47pm

Tangled Metal wrote:There's cheating going on to win the lanterne rouge you know. Including one prominent candidate in the past puncturing his own tyre to lose time.

I bet you didn't expect that!

That was quoted here recently :(
Surely one could just go slowly, or is everyone expected to try to win?
I shall transfer my passionate support to the second-last rider

There have been some sprinters who won several stages but lost lots of time in the mountains because of their special physique
Is it still so in the wonderful age of Marginal Gains?
Cycling? Of course, but it is far better on a Gillott.. Alternative facts welcome

brynpoeth
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Re: Do the British not like winning?

Postby brynpoeth » 5 Jul 2018, 12:48pm

Tangled Metal wrote:BTW typing in lanterne into my phone I got a very long welsh word starting with double L. I should have made note of it and asked you what it was (and how to pronounce it too :wink:).

Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychywerynllllantisiogogoch?
(aka Llanfairpwll or Llanfair PG)
Cycling? Of course, but it is far better on a Gillott.. Alternative facts welcome

Tangled Metal
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Re: Do the British not like winning?

Postby Tangled Metal » 5 Jul 2018, 12:59pm

Not them. It was a medium length word or place name, say about ten to fifteen letters! :D

I can't remember if it was this one or not but there were two Welsh autocorrect options both starting llg, but one ended - rwst. I don't one if it read just the short place (probably Llanrwst) or whether the longer name also ended in - rwst. My Welsh pronunciation skills are too rusty to get any right. :wink: :D

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foxyrider
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Re: Do the British not like winning?

Postby foxyrider » 7 Jul 2018, 8:29pm

To get back to the actual thread question, I think the CF/GT thing is largely due to seeing GT as more 'British' than CF. There was a bit of the same with Wiggo but at least he grew up in the UK unlike CF. Interestingly Cav seems to get the support the others might expect but he's a tiny bloke from an even tinier island but does have good Yorkshire blood in there so he must be good and kosher right?

In the larger world the tiny UK has a history of punching above its weight, taking the position of underdog as a default. Then when we actually have success, whether sporting or otherwise there seems to be a default position by the media to not believe it's possible that Bradley or Chris (as examples) could possibly beat the rest of the world. So let's start knocking them down, why believe facts when fiction is so much more exciting. This same anti winning mentality seems to be a part of Red Top readers default position. There is no loyalty, the DM in particular are always keen to be first in line at kicking anyone down, feeding the flames of 'outrage' with outright lies and spurious information.

The footballers are currently being lauded but if they falter next week the press will be after the manager like piranhas, forget what they've achieved to become at least 4th best in the world! (I actually abhor kickball but it's heartening to actually see a committed team for once).
Convention? what's that then?

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mig
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Re: Do the British not like winning?

Postby mig » 11 Jul 2018, 1:11pm

the french with raymond poulidor?

watching sport is about the competition. enhanced by the fact in this case as we, as cyclists, appreciate the work/skill/talent involved in doing what they do. someone new in that competitive environment adds to the spectacle as someone cheating dulls it for many.

oh...and yeah....give thomas a go before he's too old. capable of winning it with the team behind him (unless he decks it downhill again :wink: )

Tangled Metal
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Re: Do the British not like winning?

Postby Tangled Metal » 11 Jul 2018, 2:06pm

Not at the expense of a class act in Froome.

As an aside it should be noted that even cheats work hard at their sports. Not Froome but others who have been caught out. PEDs often work but only if you put the effort in too. Would you like to put a pro cyclist's hours in the saddle training? Even cheats put more work in than I can so it is kind of impressive that aspect.

Unfashionable view.

mig
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Re: Do the British not like winning?

Postby mig » 11 Jul 2018, 2:15pm

the blokes who did the hatton gardens robbery a few years ago worked hard in planning and executing that but i can't really condone what they did.

i don't mind froome and all he entails but i can't help being reminded of zola budd.

mig
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Re: Do the British not like winning?

Postby mig » 18 Jul 2018, 9:49pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Something mentioned in the Froome thread made me wonder about the nature of people's attitude to success in individual nations. Do some countries very behind their best athletes and crave success but others prefer the plucky underdog to get their chance.

A bit of context. A poster put forward the idea that Froome should step aside as sky team leader in favour of Thomas.

I'm guessing the theory could be like a racing stable not putting desert orchid in for the big races but letting a lesser horse have a go. Just like an experienced trainer can spot talent like red rum, desert orchid, etc. In cycling they know who the top talent is.

To me it seems like success isn't the main criteria in top level sport to some followers. That's success but not by any means of course but so far Froome hasn't been caught out going down the other means route.

Is it time to support Froome, sky and the best tour cyclist of his generation? Is it time to be American, Australian but especially French about him and get behind him for more success?


ay up squire....he ain't doing so bad :wink:

mig
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Joined: 19 Oct 2011, 9:39pm

Re: Do the British not like winning?

Postby mig » 30 Jul 2018, 12:15pm

i've been away.

how's he doing? :wink:

brynpoeth
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Re: Do the British not like winning?

Postby brynpoeth » 30 Jul 2018, 12:39pm

It's the economy stupid
GT is a much more popular winner than cf would have been, right?
Chance to exploit the Welsh market, €€€ including lots of half-welsh people like me

Will GT be at the Eisteddfod Cenedlaethol? :wink:
Cycling? Of course, but it is far better on a Gillott.. Alternative facts welcome

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Cunobelin
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Re: Do the British not like winning?

Postby Cunobelin » 30 Jul 2018, 6:52pm

This has happened before, when a certain previous TdF winner (Wiggins)was sidelined halfway through by a more "junior" rider (... ironically Froome)

Teams have to have a plan, but it must be flexible. If you have a rider on better form that is giving you the edge, then switching the teams support to that rider is an intelligent and sensible move.

As to the Welsh..... like when the Scottish girls Olympic Curling team did so well it will become adopted as a "British" victory so everyone can bask in the glory

The unlikely triumph of four ordinary Scottish women in a sport most English people had never heard of was a sensation. They were feted as "housewife superstars". Flag-waving crowds gathered at Heathrow to welcome them home, they were awarded MBEs and summoned on to Richard and Judy's sofa. "You have captured the imagination of the whole of the UK," wrote Tony Blair in a congratulatory fax. There was talk of a Hollywood movie.