Advice required on choice of 2/3 person lightweight tent

[pjclinch]

I'd considered the practicality of double-poling my Nallo after a couple of severe gales where the wind shifted from astern but came to the conclusion that doubling the poles & supporting them with tight guylines would probably only serve to transfer the stresses onto the fabric which might not be a good idea in view of the lighter 1200 weight fly material (as opposed to 1800 weight in the tougher Nammatj & similar models).

I suspect that the weak point is probably the poles. Kerlon 1200 is still substantially stronger than most tent fabrics with a tear strength well in excess of just about anything with a PU coat, so all those Quasars parked halfway up 8000m peaks probably have weaker flys than your Nallo! Poles are actually much easier to crease and break than Kerlon 1200 is to rip, even if you make a cut to start it. One of the things you also pay for with a Hille is a lot of field testing and I'd be surprised if that doesn't go for the double pole. Also the case that one of the main causes of fly rips is broken poles going through them, though the very effective rip-stop on Kerlon helps prevent that.

On the subject of Hille pricing, both my Akto (sold on as I found it too small for extended use) & Nallo (my near perfect one-man cycle tour tent) were acquired new some years ago from a South Manchester dealer at substantial discount. Hille later threatened to cut off supplies if they didn't adhere to the manufacturer's pricing policy, though the trader seemed quite content with the mark up from the discounted price.
How refreshing to find a dealer/enthusiast with a real interest in giving a good deal. Of course, that business has now closed.....but the tent goes on for ever.

Alpenstock? I think the owner retired in the last year or so. Shame it's gone, was a great shop and our Kaitum 3 came from there. The Tarra was an end-of-stock clearance at Tiso with an extra 15% off on a club night, so the £585 RRP (this was about 2000 btw) ended up at £420. Still not exactly cheap 18 years later, but not something I'd swap for any alternative (possibly excepting a Staika or a Saivo...)

Pete.

[horizon]

Much like riding your TT bike on a turbo in a wind tunnel, the Real World turns out to be a bit more complicated than that...

But why is it that a four season-rated tent costing four times as much (approx £800 against approx £200) is less able to withstand winds than the three season tent? Surely this turns everything on its head? Lightness matters (of course) but I would have thought you pay for that in £ (which you do here anyway in spades )rather than in robustness. I've already alluded to the HH, less on the Osprey than on the Voyager!

And surely the difference between a four season tent and a three season tent is the ability to withstand weather rather than lightness?

[Thehairs1970]

I though that four man tents were designed to take snow specifically rather than wind - i.e. snow piling up on them. They also tend to have a valance to stop snow intruding from below the flysheet. So yeah I think it's snow that is the main factor for four seasons.

[Jezrant]

The German shop Extremtextil sells DAC featherlite parts, and you can see there that the weight difference is 6 grams for a 40 cm section: https://www.extremtextil.de/dac-zeltges ... e-nsl.html By the way, it is a very interesting shop for all sorts of other hard to get components.
I was talking to a Hilleberg representative some time ago, and he said they had considered going for even lighter poles for their then new yellow label tents, but had decided against it.
Do we know which of the three poles in a typical tunnel tent with porch is stressed most? I would guess the central one, certainly if it is longer as in the Lofoten, but perhaps also in case all three are of equal length. Am I right?

Thanks for the link to that shop. Looks very interesting. Does anyone know of a similar shop in the UK that sells silicone-coated ripstop nylons by the m2 like the fabrics Helsport and Hilleberg use?

[pjclinch]

But why is it that a four season-rated tent costing four times as much (approx £800 against approx £200) is less able to withstand winds than the three season tent? Surely this turns everything on its head? Lightness matters (of course) but I would have thought you pay for that in £ (which you do here anyway in spades )rather than in robustness. I've already alluded to the HH, less on the Osprey than on the Voyager!

And surely the difference between a four season tent and a three season tent is the ability to withstand weather rather than lightness?

One problem here is the definition of "4 season". What does it mean and who defines it? The second part of that is "marketing departments" and that in turn implies that the first part is "could be just about anything!"

And the note above about snow is fair comment: all bar one of the proper gale force winds I've ever camped in have been outside of winter. Hille's definition of "4 season" seems to be "flysheet down to the ground". Their 3 season tents will still take a gale, but with the fly not down to the ground it'll get a lot colder inside if it's really blowing.

Furthermore, as I pointed out in a recent reply the fabrics are typically not the weak point on a high-end tent, if something goes it'll be a pole, so failure points indicating a pole has gone don't tell you anything about the strength of the flysheet. Siliconised both sides adds quite a bit to the ticket, but also makes the tent a lot stronger, especially if e.g. a broken pole goes through the fly. You can take a ripstop nylon fly fabric with silicone both sides, cut a tear in to it with scissors and even then it's practically impossible to add to the rip using all your sterngth. Do that with a PU coated nylon and it rips easily. Siliconised coatings both sides are something worth paying for IMHO, but marketing prefer taped seams which is very difficult to do with silicone coats (vauDe and Lightwave are shipping examples, I don't think anyone else does) so we get cheaper and weaker but guaranteed waterproof, as opposed to very probably waterproof and definitely if you can be bothered to spend a few minutes gooping the seams.

The other thing that'll go after a pole is a zip, so the best tents have chunky YKK coils that have a better track record than alternatives. Good builders will use these on lower ticket items, but it's not universal.

Pete.

[Jezrant]

Pete, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Hilleberg use some PU coating for the floors and doesn't that go icky too? Or are their floors just silicone coated?

[pjclinch]

Pete, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Hilleberg use some PU coating for the floors and doesn't that go icky too? Or are their floors just silicone coated?

The floors are PU coated (you want abrasion resistance on the floors more than tear strength, different courses, different horses). I've yet to come across these turning in to yuck, whether that's the different nature of it (stouter base fabric and more and heavier layers), a different quality of coat, just got lucky or whatever I don't know.

A few ultralight designs have silicone coated floors. Not used one, but good luck not sliding down to the bottom if you pitch on anything other than level ground... Very light floors, aside from the obvious robustness issues, are also more prone to condensation. I imagine it's psychological to some degree, but I'm happier in something with a moderately chunky groundsheet. Maybe it's all that time in Force 10s over the years...

Pete.

[Jezrant]

Thanks Pete, that's what I thought. I believe Helsport use a PU coating inside the floor and silicone coating for the bottom. Could be more slippy than PU but never been an issue for me. BTW, I'm sure there are a few people besides myself reading this who also use their tent for backpacking and have encountered much worse conditions in Scotland than they have when cycling.

[andrew_s]

Pete, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Hilleberg use some PU coating for the floors and doesn't that go icky too? Or are their floors just silicone coated?

The PU coated groundsheet of the Quasar that I lost to a sticky outer was unaffected.

I understand that it's being stored for long periods with the fabric rolled coating to coating that causes the stickiness problem. Over time the plasticizer that's in the PU coating would normally migrate out and evaporate, but when placed coating to coating, it accumulates rather than evaporating off, with excess plasticizer being what causes the stickiness.
A separate outer that's stored rolled necessarily has coating to coating areas, but an inner would normally have layers of the inner upper separating layers of inner groundsheet.

[paddler]

About Hilleberg poles, I have a second hand Nallo 2. A few years ago I was camping in Algonquin with my son when he trod on one of the pole sections as we were making camp. It was on thick pine needles and he was wearing hiking boots with reasonably soft soles. I had a good look and couldn't see any damage and thought no more about it. We were there for another six nights. On the last morning I was breaking camp and one of the sections broke - I wasn't doing anything different to normal and we had no bad winds or any other problems at all.

Presumably (but I don't know) it was the section he trod on - and I wonder if I didn't relax the tension on the strap before I pulled the pole out. Either way it made me suspect all the sections so I replaced them.

Dave

[pjclinch]

BTW, I'm sure there are a few people besides myself reading this who also use their tent for backpacking and have encountered much worse conditions in Scotland than they have when cycling.

Worst night out I've had was in a Sapcepacker high on The Ben in a sleety blizzard. We would have bailed but our pals weren't back from a climb and we had to wait around for the night to see if we had to call out the MRT (we did, but our pals were okay having diverted to help someone who fell and broke a wrist, weekend of Top Fun all around!). Was wet and cold but the tent held, even though the pole would flatten periodically and having whacked us on the head would bonce back in to shape! A Quasar next door acquired a permanent list of about 10 degrees set in to its poles...

I have the Tarra specifically for paddle trips as one might end up being forced ashore somewhere with no shelter and not much in the way of a decent pitch, and the boat means the weight and bulk aren't really an issue. Worst it's had to deal with is a gale, probably abut an 8 parked by Loch Etive, that had us taking down a Saunders tunnel we were worried about and a pal bailed out of his old A-Frame Ultimate to join me, just in case. Was a bit noisy but no suggestion it was in any trouble (it's one of the originals with 8.5 mm poles).

The Kaitum was bought particularly with cycle trips in mind, but it's gone backpacking and paddling too. Worst it's had to date was a gale we reckoned about a 7 perched on the edge of a dune in Benbecula facing the Atlantic. Noisy and the outer moved enough to create drafts inside but the poles weren't moving much and again no suggestion it was in any trouble. That's the roughest night I've spent on a cycle trip.

Pete.

[Jezrant]

Me and a mate some years ago winter climbing put one of those orange plastic bags called an emergency survival shelter to good use at the top of Creag Meagaidh. Another time in the Cuillins I woke one morning to find another mate in hypothermia after a hoolie that night had ripped his Terra Nova to shreds. The noise in my Helsport had been deafening. I think I even slept an hour or two.

[Jezrant]

Pete, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Hilleberg use some PU coating for the floors and doesn't that go icky too? Or are their floors just silicone coated?

The PU coated groundsheet of the Quasar that I lost to a sticky outer was unaffected.

I understand that it's being stored for long periods with the fabric rolled coating to coating that causes the stickiness problem. Over time the plasticizer that's in the coating would normally migrate out and evaporate, but when placed coating to coating, it accumulates rather than evaporating off, with excess plasticizer being what causes the stickiness.
A separate outer that's stored rolled necessarily has coating to coating areas, but an inner would normally have layers of the inner upper separating layers of inner groundsheet.

That makes sense. In my long experience with a Helsport tent, the outer (flysheet) never goes sticky. I guess that's because it's silicone-coated both sides. Out of curiosity, what tent are you using now Andrew if you don't mind my asking.

[philsknees]

'Strewth, miss 24 hours & a whole new page of interesting stuff appears.
Thanks to CJ for imparting his knowledge of the Kerlon fabrics; I'll go by his advice, though I'm of an age now when I'd probably wimp out of any conditions likely to require double poling. The extra weight & high cost of the poles wouldn't be worth it to me, against a rare night in a b&b.
And yes, Alpenstock was the place that persuaded me to turn from Terra Nova to Hilleberg for my lightweight tents before the eponymous knees dictated that I turned to cycle touring. The Akto didn't suit me and for very lightweight, "bale-able", short duration trips I still prefer the extra roominess of my TN Lasercomp 2 which benefits fromlightness, a more user-friendly interior with better ventilation & versatile front & back doors. However, it isn't the two person tent it's described as and isn't intended for 4 season use.
I previously had one of the original one man Laserlites which was more sturdily built and stood up to some impressively bad weather on long backpacks high up in the hills, eventually opening a seam above the door & bending a pole when pinned down in Force 7, gusting 8, for 36 hours. The seam was repaired by TN and the pole replaced. Subsequently a heavy dump of wet snow left me wandering around a campsite one February evening convinced the thing had been stolen. A slight hump revealed that the pole had snapped under the weight of snow though I later repaired it using undamaged sections of the bent pole from the previous incident. I reckon a split seam & 2 pole sections is acceptable for hard use of a 3 season tent in high exposed & winter conditions that it was never designed for. But when casting off into the unknown I still turn to the security of the Nallo, which certainly has an extra season capability over the Lasers.
On the subject of breaking poles, the Hille pole sleeves run outside of the body of the tent, whilst I understand the Helsport sleeves are within the flysheet "to minimse wind resistance". There's currently a Nallo for sale on Ebay with a photo showing sleeve damage caused by a pole without any consequences to the fly - I wonder what the damage to the fly would be if the pole had pierced an internal sleeve?
As for camping in high winds, the equinoxes were traditionally the time for the strongest winds but apparently this has not been the case of late. Not in my experience though. About 4 or 5 years ago I started a Lairg/Durness/Oban ride at the end of April. It snowed as I got off the train at Lairg, next evening I was pinned down for 48 hours by high winds, driving sleet & snow on the pass between Altnaharra and Loch Hope. All went well for some days after that, even enjoying Northerly winds to assist progress until Inchnadamph where a huge storm rolled in, making pitching a tent impossible. I managed to secure a bunk in the Lodge & the next 48 hours were like nothing I've ever seen, with deer, already weak from a harsh winter, streaming off the hills, many collapsing in such poor condition that the estate stalker was having to put them down. Two Dutch backpacker/mountaineers appeared looking shell-shocked after their mountain tent had been ripped to shreds around them. But the one stand-out incident happened as I optimistically loaded my bike after the first night when a walker I'd been chatting to in the shelter of the building went round the corner only to reappear 18" off the ground, blown off his feet & thrown 6' backwards by the wind.
I unloaded the bike & booked in for another night in the Lodge......

[JackRabbitSlims]

I too am in the market for a new lightweight, 2 person 3-4 season tent for Bike Touring.

I currently have the MSR Hubba Hubba which has served me well for the past 2.5 years and plenty of touring KM's all over the globe.

I've just retuned to NZ after 3 months in the Indian Himalaya and Europe (Poland, Czech, Austria, Germany, Swiss, France)

What i'm experiencing now with my tent is "Fly -Stretch" - well, thats what I term it - when pitched in good conditions the tent is fine.....which is to be expected. When the Fly gets wet it absorbs the water, rather than repels it, gets heavy and ends up touching the inner tent and I get wet inside!!

When it rains I leap outside and tighten down the four pole corners of the fly as far as they go, but this still does not prevent me getting wet! The tension straps are maxed out and the fly still sags into the Inner!
I DO NOT use the guy out lines at all and I'm wondering if I should try this to see if it helps?? Yes??

I really like the tent and was wondering if I should contact MSR and see if I can just buy a replacement fly??
I'm in NZ and bought the tent online out of Germany! (Bike24) Happy to buy a new fly and get more use out of the tent.

However.....i'm also looking at a potential replacement and I'm leaning towards a Hilleberg as I have some big tours in the pipeline that could cover all seasons. I want a 2 person freestanding and I like the look of the Allak. Whilst recently in Germany (Dresden) I was able to see this tent in a store and I was surprised how much heavier it was packaged up than the Hubba Hubba, however when I saw the pitched version and had a thorough going over of the tent etc....the build quality, fabric, layout etc, I'm happy to go heavier for a better tent for my purposes. I want longevity and durability.

Funnily enough, the Allak Tent is cheaper here in NZ, than the price in Germany, which really surprised me as EVERYTHING is more expensive down here

Sorry for a bit of a hijack of the thread, but.....any comments on my Hubba Hubba Fly situation, or if you know if MSR would replace the fly??
Also, any Allak users out there who can comment or recommend that model of Tent please??

Thanks if you can help me out.
Cheers.