Italian Bridge Collapse

[661-Pete]

How worried should we be?

Can we take comfort in the belief that our standards of bridge maintenance are better than those in Italy? Or is this too smug? I'd imagine many of us regularly cross bridges, whether by bike, train, motor vehicle, or on foot. When I think about it, whilst there are few in Britain as spectacular as the doomed Ponte Morandi, there are innumerable motorway flyovers and the like all over the country, and we're crossing and re-crossing those all the time. Are we going to have another Tay Bridge perhaps?

It does nevertheless seem that the safety standard in Italy is appalling. When something like this occurs in mainland Europe, I tend to have a browse through the local news sites to gain more insight. But since I don't speak Italian, I turned to Le Figaro amongst others. This article (in French) says that there have been eleven major bridge collapses in Italy over the past five years. Several of them resulting in fatalities.

Perhaps the advice to 'steer clear of Italy' would be putting it a bit too strong?

[toontra]

Corruption is so endemic at every level of Italian society the only wonder is there aren't more of these tragedies. I would like to think that the construction industry in the UK has far higher oversight and inspection standards.

[Cyril Haearn]

We do it right in Wales
Pont Abermaw/Barmouth Bridge was closed many years ago for many months after worms had damaged it
Stayed open for PoBs + PoFs, mind

[al_yrpal]

Prestressed steel, inside concrete, a wonder material….. Is it? Putting the concrete into compression makes it very strong until corrosion sets in!

Remember the Hammersmith Flyover? Our inspection regimes seem to be attentive, but are they? This tragedy will concentrate minds.

Why isnt the Building Research Establishment being censured over Grenfell?

Al

[mjr]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponte_Mor ... engthening makes for worrying reading. It's easy to be wise after the collapse, but it seems that the bridge has been under repair almost continually since the 1970s, only got level in the 1980s, had external steel cables added in 1990 which now had rust visible, was called "a failure of engineering" by a Professor of Structural Engineering in 2016 and had just had a structural upgrade contract tendered... the works for which may have contributed to the collapse, but that will hopefully be confirmed or rejected during the investigation.

I think UK bridges have had a lot more work done on them to stop the metals rusting, plus I know of several concrete bridges which have been replaced with stronger designs much younger than that one because of fatigue or discovered flaws. I can't think of and didn't find any UK cable-stayed bridges using prestressed concrete in a similar way - are there any?

[Ben@Forest]

It's not just Italy. I heard that Trump made a big deal of repairing American worn-out infrastructure - I don't know if he is doing so - but you can understand the political capital.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/01/30/report-over-54000-american-bridges-are-structurally-deficient-infographic/#11c6f8f119b5

But Italy is institutionally corrupt. I knew an English teacher who worked there, teaching English, she came back worn out by the corruption and nepotism. Many ordinary services required a bribe - including getting a gas leak seen to!

[Cunobelin]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponte_Morandi#Maintenance_and_strengthening makes for worrying reading. It's easy to be wise after the collapse, but it seems that the bridge has been under repair almost continually since the 1970s, only got level in the 1980s, had external steel cables added in 1990 which now had rust visible, was called "a failure of engineering" by a Professor of Structural Engineering in 2016 and had just had a structural upgrade contract tendered... the works for which may have contributed to the collapse, but that will hopefully be confirmed or rejected during the investigation.

I think UK bridges have had a lot more work done on them to stop the metals rusting, plus I know of several concrete bridges which have been replaced with stronger designs much younger than that one because of fatigue or discovered flaws. I can't think of and didn't find any UK cable-stayed bridges using prestressed concrete in a similar way - are there any?

Interesting piece on the history from the Civil Engineering Department at Cambridge University on the use of this material in the UK

We seemed to use it differently from other countries

[Cyril Haearn]

It's not just Italy. I heard that Trump made a big deal of repairing American worn-out infrastructure - I don't know if he is doing so - but you can understand the political capital.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/01/30/report-over-54000-american-bridges-are-structurally-deficient-infographic/#11c6f8f119b5

But Italy is institutionally corrupt. I knew an English teacher who worked there, teaching English, she came back worn out by the corruption and nepotism. Many ordinary services required a bribe - including getting a gas leak seen to!

Saw a great funny Italian film, l'ora legal, the time of legality
A professor (teacher) was elected mayor and tried to enforce the law on parking, buildings etc etc
In the end he had to go and things went back to normal. Favourite line: a child asked
-what is that man in uniform?!?
-that is a Traffic Policeperson, love!

Dunno if Italy is corrupt, looks a very interesting country to visit

[Ben@Forest]

Dunno if Italy is corrupt, looks a very interesting country to visit

You can say the same about India, tens of thousands of British tourists have fabulous holidays there every year and will relate stories about the sight, sounds, colour, diversity etc, etc, but of course India is the second most unequal country in the world, the caste system still reverberates, there is massive poverty and malnutrition, the literacy rate (especially in women) is well below where it should be. Interesting doesn't mean well-run.

[nirakaro]

but of course India is the second most unequal country in the world

The Gini index is a measure of inequality. India's score of 35.2% makes it the 95th most unequal country - not so much worse than the UK at 32.4%. Italy does rather better at 31.9%.

[mumbojumbo]

Corruption is so endemic at every level of Italian society the only wonder is there aren't more of these tragedies. I would like to think that the construction industry in the UK has far higher oversight and inspection standards.

IIf you think the UK construction industry is free of corruption you need to think again-the tendering process is riven with collusive practises.Moreover I cannot how someone living in London can appraise Italian society,other than watch reruns of The Godfather and the like.

[pliptrot]

Wherever there is a profit imperative - as with the management of the Genoa bridge- standards rapidly decline. If you think anywhere is immune, you are wrong. Britain has many industries and institutions doing a good job based on the hangover from public ownership. All that has gone to shut of course. Read " where have the engineers gone" for an indication of what happens when commercial interests are paramount.

I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my SM-G900F using hovercraft full of eels.

[Ben@Forest]

Wherever there is a profit imperative - as with the management of the Genoa bridge- standards rapidly decline.

Is this the case tho? - it appears that actually they spent vast amounts on repairs to this bridge, more than a replacement would have cost, but, possibly for good reasons; essentially the vast number of failed Itailan infrastructure projects, both people and politicians were suspicious of financing a replacement. We now know that the bridge was not a great design, of materials that are now known to be suspect and subject to a level of use that was not expected, but none of those things are necessarily related to profit.

Some years ago l met an Italian at an English nature reserve where work had been partly financed through EU funding. Considerable funds (mainly through fundraising not the EU) had been spent and a lot of work done but the signage about it was modest. His reaction - 'In Italy they'd have huge signs up about it - and the EU contribution - but none of the work would be done yet. He was a conservation professional, so l think knew what he was talking about.

[honesty]

I was about 50 minutes drive north of this when it happened. The previous night I’d spend a good while watching the continuous lightning storm happening to the south, over Genova. This went on for a good hour to 2 hours. The quantity of rain put down in a very short time along with large amounts of disruptive road works in the area of the bridge would be my guess as to why this finally went.

I don’t think this has anything to do with corruption (given that some research put the UK at the top of the most corrupt countries in Europe) but more to do with chronic underfunding of the road network but Italy. They’ve spent significantly less on their roads than the other large nations in Europe over the last decade. Then again a recent report from France says somewhere in the region of 840 bridges there will have to be closed in the next 20 years due to underfunding...

[661-Pete]

Then again a recent report from France says somewhere in the region of 840 bridges there will have to be closed in the next 20 years due to underfunding...

More cause for concern...

The biggest and most spectacular bridge that we regularly drive across, is the Pont de Cheviré in France, which spans the Loire just west of Nantes. According to the Wiki article (in French) there don't seem to be current concerns about the integrity of that structure, but who knows? It is a totally different construction, without suspension pillars.

Anyway, on recent trips we have avoided this bridge, preferring to by-pass Nantes to the east via a much lower bridge over the Loire. But this was not because of any misgivings over Cheviré's safety, but on account of the frequent traffic jams....

Similarly, when traversing London between North and South, we tend nowadays to take the western M25 rather than the east side over the Dartford crossing. This is mainly because of the tolls and the absurd 'photo-and-pay-later' system which they have instigated (and which, to my mind, hasn't made the transit one second quicker.... )