Cycling UK Forum

thirdcrank wrote:Can I nudge this back towards speed awareness and similar courses?

Does anybody have an opinion on their value as a better way of improving driver behaviour than fines + endorsements?

We had a strongly negative view from a poster who has been on three but I rather like the idea that the instructors don't accept chelp from people on the course who feel affronted to be there. Also, my understanding is that as these courses have been offered for alleged speeding offences below the old enforcement levels, they have been a way of reducing the speed at which enforcement begins.

I think courses are a cop-out, the three Es, entertainment, empathy, educashon
Punishment is the only thing that works

Cyril Haearn wrote:

thirdcrank wrote:Can I nudge this back towards speed awareness and similar courses?

Does anybody have an opinion on their value as a better way of improving driver behaviour than fines + endorsements?

We had a strongly negative view from a poster who has been on three but I rather like the idea that the instructors don't accept chelp from people on the course who feel affronted to be there. Also, my understanding is that as these courses have been offered for alleged speeding offences below the old enforcement levels, they have been a way of reducing the speed at which enforcement begins.

I think courses are a cop-out, the three Es, entertainment, empathy, educashon
Punishment is the only thing that works

A wodge of money and several hours of your time would be punishment in most people's book. Do you want hands chopped off for a first offence?

This is a bit like the wonderful (and erroneous) claims that all modern cars can stop on a sixpence..... the effectiveness of speed awareness courses and claims that they are a waste of time should not be a personal opinion or anecdote, but evidenced

They were provided as an acceptance that not all speeding is a deliberate act, and that many good drivers can be caught out. Hence the idea of education.

It excluded those who were excessively fast, or repeat offenders

A research project by Aston University looked at their effectiveness in 2013 and found that:

“The results clearly show that the speed awareness course led to reliable improvements in client’s attitude to speeding and importantly their intention not to break the speed limit. The speed awareness course led to very reliable improvements in clients’ attitude towards not speeding.”

A second more recent study in 2018:

“Participation in the National Speed Awareness Course has a larger effect in reducing speed reoffending than the penalty points and fine associated with Fixed Penalty Notices.”

They also showed that whilst drivers win a speeding offence were statistically more likely to be in an accident in the next 6 months:

Drivers are between 12 and 23 per cent LESS likely to speed within six months of taking a course compared to if they choose the points and fine. And those who participate in a course have a significantly lower collision rate afterwards than those who take the points.

Once again, I am quite happy for any evidence that shows the courses do not work rather than speculation and personal opinion

Post removed

pete75 wrote:

mjr wrote:

pete75 wrote:The great majority of motorists cannot read? I've heard some crap on here but that...............

Yes, it would be better to conclude that the great majority of motorists don't read, rather than can't.

pete75 wrote:And you say that most drivers are committing the offences you describe? It'd be more accurate to say some.

No, I'd say it's more accurate to say most, based on my observations. Driving standards seem to have fallen through the floor, most of the way to hell.

pete75 wrote:Anyhow with most modern cars it's not possible to travel too close - they bleep at you and then brake if you do so. Our Mercs have had that feature for several years now and even our other car a cheap and cheerful Skoda Superb has it. They also do emergency stops by themselves in a lot quicker distance than the out dated stuff in the Highway Code.

And you think that's in most modern cars? It'd be more accurate to say some. I doubt "most" is true even for new cars sold this year or last year, but I welcome any counts.

Was it a Skoda Superb that braked on its own between the roll-out and real start (aka KM 0) and took Mark Cavendish out of a race earlier this year? https://road.cc/content/news/237586-rac ... dhabi-tour says drivers can turn the feature off and I bet plenty of tailgaters do, once it makes itself known.

Perhaps you should read an article before you post a link - it states " with Mercedes providing the official vehicles." Nor does it say drivers can turn it off rather that they would speak to mechanics about turning it off - if it was so easy to turn off it wouldn't need a mechanic. Anyhow did Cavendish run into the back of the car. If he did it was his own fault.

Skoda's are a much derided "joke" vehicle at the bottom of teh automotive food chain. If they have this feature then it's a good bet most "superior" makes will have it. A Skoda Superb(I love their irony in choosing that name) is fairly cheap as cars go. The one we have is a 2016 model and cost under £15,000 when bought in May.

Still misses the point that at most speeds the vehicle will be travelling the Skoda DOES NOT have this system, nor does Mercedes...... so how on earth can the proof that these cars do not have this system suggest most "superior" cars do?

Please name a single car that has an automatic braking system that operates across the full normal speed range.

Cyril Haearn wrote:Does the sensor apply the two second rule? I think that is not enough
I get nervous when a mercedes is following me with bright headlights on

Especially when the driver is relying on an automatic braking system they think exists.... but doesn't according to Mercedes

pwa wrote:

Cyril Haearn wrote:

thirdcrank wrote:Can I nudge this back towards speed awareness and similar courses?

Does anybody have an opinion on their value as a better way of improving driver behaviour than fines + endorsements?

We had a strongly negative view from a poster who has been on three but I rather like the idea that the instructors don't accept chelp from people on the course who feel affronted to be there. Also, my understanding is that as these courses have been offered for alleged speeding offences below the old enforcement levels, they have been a way of reducing the speed at which enforcement begins.

I think courses are a cop-out, the three Es, entertainment, empathy, educashon
Punishment is the only thing that works

A wodge of money and several hours of your time would be punishment in most people's book. Do you want hands chopped off for a first offence?

Were I a judge I would customise punishments after investigating the circumstances of the offender
In your case, eight hours of Welsh lessons
Not sure if that would count as a punishment, you would probably enrol for more

Cyril Haearn wrote:

pwa wrote:

Cyril Haearn wrote:I think courses are a cop-out, the three Es, entertainment, empathy, educashon
Punishment is the only thing that works

A wodge of money and several hours of your time would be punishment in most people's book. Do you want hands chopped off for a first offence?

Were I a judge I would customise punishments after investigating the circumstances of the offender
In your case, eight hours of Welsh lessons
Not sure if that would count as a punishment, you would probably enrol for more

I'd count that as punishment.

mjr wrote:

pete75 wrote:

mjr wrote:Was it a Skoda Superb that braked on its own between the roll-out and real start (aka KM 0) and took Mark Cavendish out of a race earlier this year? https://road.cc/content/news/237586-rac ... dhabi-tour says drivers can turn the feature off and I bet plenty of tailgaters do, once it makes itself known.

Perhaps you should read an article before you post a link - it states " with Mercedes providing the official vehicles."

I read it - or rather, I misread it as saying Mercedes provided the official vehicles to the Giro and MSR.

pete75 wrote:Nor does it say drivers can turn it off rather that they would speak to mechanics about turning it off - if it was so easy to turn off it wouldn't need a mechanic.

Perhaps you should read an article before you say it doesn't say "There was a little warning in the cars at the Tour Down Under reminding drivers to turn the auto-brake feature off"?

Yes I saw that comment had been added - no idea if it's correct or not particularly as the main article mentions mechanics.

Cunobelin wrote:

pete75 wrote:

mjr wrote:Yes, it would be better to conclude that the great majority of motorists don't read, rather than can't.


No, I'd say it's more accurate to say most, based on my observations. Driving standards seem to have fallen through the floor, most of the way to hell.


And you think that's in most modern cars? It'd be more accurate to say some. I doubt "most" is true even for new cars sold this year or last year, but I welcome any counts.

Was it a Skoda Superb that braked on its own between the roll-out and real start (aka KM 0) and took Mark Cavendish out of a race earlier this year? https://road.cc/content/news/237586-rac ... dhabi-tour says drivers can turn the feature off and I bet plenty of tailgaters do, once it makes itself known.

Perhaps you should read an article before you post a link - it states " with Mercedes providing the official vehicles." Nor does it say drivers can turn it off rather that they would speak to mechanics about turning it off - if it was so easy to turn off it wouldn't need a mechanic. Anyhow did Cavendish run into the back of the car. If he did it was his own fault.

Skoda's are a much derided "joke" vehicle at the bottom of teh automotive food chain. If they have this feature then it's a good bet most "superior" makes will have it. A Skoda Superb(I love their irony in choosing that name) is fairly cheap as cars go. The one we have is a 2016 model and cost under £15,000 when bought in May.

Still misses the point that at most speeds the vehicle will be travelling the Skoda DOES NOT have this system, nor does Mercedes...... so how on earth can the proof that these cars do not have this system suggest most "superior" cars do?

Please name a single car that has an automatic braking system that operates across the full normal speed range.

Cyril Haearn wrote:Does the sensor apply the two second rule? I think that is not enough
I get nervous when a mercedes is following me with bright headlights on

Especially when the driver is relying on an automatic braking system they think exists.... but doesn't according to Mercedes

What do Mercedes say about it and which particular system - they do several?

We have a 67 Skoda Fabia which came with "Front assist" as standard:-

Front assist

Front assist is a safety system that will automatically warn the driver about the possibility of a collision at certain speeds. If an object or another vehicle cannot be avoided, Front assist will kick in and apply the brakes whilst registering and monitoring speed and distance.

http://www.skoda.co.uk/models/fabia-hatch/safety

thirdcrank wrote:We have a 67 Skoda Fabia which came with "Front assist" as standard:-

Front assist

Front assist is a safety system that will automatically warn the driver about the possibility of a collision at certain speeds. If an object or another vehicle cannot be avoided, Front assist will kick in and apply the brakes whilst registering and monitoring speed and distance.

http://www.skoda.co.uk/models/fabia-hatch/safety

Does it work? Or do you always leave gaps? Is the sofa as good as a vw?

thirdcrank wrote:We have a 67 Skoda Fabia which came with "Front assist" as standard:-

Front assist

Front assist is a safety system that will automatically warn the driver about the possibility of a collision at certain speeds. If an object or another vehicle cannot be avoided, Front assist will kick in and apply the brakes whilst registering and monitoring speed and distance.

http://www.skoda.co.uk/models/fabia-hatch/safety

See the reference above from Euro NCAP, who independently tested the vehicle, and state that it does not act between certain speeds:

Up to 30km/h Front Assistant applies full braking, and can detect moving or stationary objects; between 30km/h and 80km/h, there is no automatic braking but the system will warn the driver if it detects a stationary object.

It is up to the driver to brake, and the vehicle will then assist, it does not brake automatically

There is also the issue according to Skoda where the sensor may be ineffective when visibility is poor, (e.g. fog, heavy rain, thick snowfall

Still remains a system that does nothing to challenge the TRL research about total stopping distances, and if anything goes a long way to support the argument that drivers are the issue if they need a complete support system just to stop the car.

pete75 wrote:

Cunobelin wrote:

pete75 wrote:
Perhaps you should read an article before you post a link - it states " with Mercedes providing the official vehicles." Nor does it say drivers can turn it off rather that they would speak to mechanics about turning it off - if it was so easy to turn off it wouldn't need a mechanic. Anyhow did Cavendish run into the back of the car. If he did it was his own fault.

Skoda's are a much derided "joke" vehicle at the bottom of teh automotive food chain. If they have this feature then it's a good bet most "superior" makes will have it. A Skoda Superb(I love their irony in choosing that name) is fairly cheap as cars go. The one we have is a 2016 model and cost under £15,000 when bought in May.

Still misses the point that at most speeds the vehicle will be travelling the Skoda DOES NOT have this system, nor does Mercedes...... so how on earth can the proof that these cars do not have this system suggest most "superior" cars do?

Please name a single car that has an automatic braking system that operates across the full normal speed range.

Cyril Haearn wrote:Does the sensor apply the two second rule? I think that is not enough
I get nervous when a mercedes is following me with bright headlights on

Especially when the driver is relying on an automatic braking system they think exists.... but doesn't according to Mercedes

What do Mercedes say about it and which particular system - they do several?

If you wish to go into detail provide the name the vehicle (as requested) and we can discuss details. It will not however avoid teh fact that it does not support claims of better braking.

Generically:

Automatic Emergency Braking (AEB) should work under most conditions however wet roads may increase stopping distances and fog, or sun glare may impact on the technology's ability to detect hazards. It is important to remember that the driver always has responsibility for the vehicle and that they should drive to the conditions.

So we have a wonderful system that can be compromised in bad weather or good weather!

Best if the driver does not know that the vehicle has this Safety Feature, right?

Cyril Haearn wrote:Best if the driver does not know that the vehicle has this Safety Feature, right?

Part of the problem, and again supporting the evidence that drivers have not developed is the equipment deemed "necessary" to support the driver. You have attention detectors, speed detectors, lane detectors motion detectors, proximity detectors and also parking detectors. Braking at some speeds is assisted If this continues we will soon be seeing bladder detectors to tell you when to go to the loo.

We joke about automated cars, but these are almost there

These systems are flawed, but more and more drivers depend upon them as they are unable or unwilling to do any of these tasks for themselves.