dying cyclist ignored by passing drivers

reohn2

Post by reohn2 »

mhara wrote:
reohn2 wrote: .... My blood pressure is fine,all the cycling helps rid me of all the anxst,and of course the full knowledge that capitalism has a heart of gold :wink:


You're right there Reohn. Can't think why such an intelligent man as John Maynard Keynes said "Capitalism is the extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men, for the nastiest of motives, will somehow work for the benefit of all." :)


You got it in one Mhara :)
patmac
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Post by patmac »

mhara wrote:
reohn2 wrote: .... My blood pressure is fine,all the cycling helps rid me of all the anxst,and of course the full knowledge that capitalism has a heart of gold :wink:


You're right there Reohn. Can't think why such an intelligent man as John Maynard Keynes said "Capitalism is the extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men, for the nastiest of motives, will somehow work for the benefit of all." :)

As opposed, say, to those other highly intelligent men Marx and Engels who though paradise on earth would ensue if we adopted the most extreme form of socialism world wide. I wonder if the people of the old Soviet Union who endured 70 years of 'paradise on earth'-including Stalin and his purges-would agree. Also note that the people of China are voting with their wallets for the sort of society they want. And at last the people of Cuba-that prison island under Castro-are getting a first taste of the system they want, that system called democratic capitalism. Long live the open society, brother!
reohn2

Post by reohn2 »

patmac wrote:
mhara wrote:
reohn2 wrote: .... My blood pressure is fine,all the cycling helps rid me of all the anxst,and of course the full knowledge that capitalism has a heart of gold :wink:


You're right there Reohn. Can't think why such an intelligent man as John Maynard Keynes said "Capitalism is the extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men, for the nastiest of motives, will somehow work for the benefit of all." :)

As opposed, say, to those other highly intelligent men Marx and Engels who though paradise on earth would ensue if we adopted the most extreme form of socialism world wide. I wonder if the people of the old Soviet Union who endured 70 years of 'paradise on earth'-including Stalin and his purges-would agree. Also note that the people of China are voting with their wallets for the sort of society they want. And at last the people of Cuba-that prison island under Castro-are getting a first taste of the system they want, that system called democratic capitalism. Long live the open society, brother!


You know if you go far enough right you'll come out left,so far you're the only one to mention socialism and comunism.
But then you are, "Old enough to know better ( than us!)" all aren't you :) .
If you can't see whats before your eyes I'll have to assume i'm conversing with a blind man 8) .
If you think this is the closest we can get to utopia you're easily pleased old boy.
Gisen
Posts: 252
Joined: 24 Feb 2008, 5:58pm

Post by Gisen »

patmac wrote:
mhara wrote:
reohn2 wrote: .... My blood pressure is fine,all the cycling helps rid me of all the anxst,and of course the full knowledge that capitalism has a heart of gold :wink:


You're right there Reohn. Can't think why such an intelligent man as John Maynard Keynes said "Capitalism is the extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men, for the nastiest of motives, will somehow work for the benefit of all." :)

As opposed, say, to those other highly intelligent men Marx and Engels who though paradise on earth would ensue if we adopted the most extreme form of socialism world wide. I wonder if the people of the old Soviet Union who endured 70 years of 'paradise on earth'-including Stalin and his purges-would agree. Also note that the people of China are voting with their wallets for the sort of society they want. And at last the people of Cuba-that prison island under Castro-are getting a first taste of the system they want, that system called democratic capitalism. Long live the open society, brother!


Umm, there has never been a communist government on this planet; simply a number of dictatorships that claimed to be working on making communist governments.

Yes, communism is unworkable because its too open to abuse by these people, but socialism itself is not an evil concept.
mhara

Post by mhara »

Gisen wrote:
patmac wrote:
mhara wrote:
reohn2 wrote: .... My blood pressure is fine,all the cycling helps rid me of all the anxst,and of course the full knowledge that capitalism has a heart of gold :wink:


You're right there Reohn. Can't think why such an intelligent man as John Maynard Keynes said "Capitalism is the extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men, for the nastiest of motives, will somehow work for the benefit of all." :)

As opposed, say, to those other highly intelligent men Marx and Engels who though paradise on earth would ensue if we adopted the most extreme form of socialism world wide. I wonder if the people of the old Soviet Union who endured 70 years of 'paradise on earth'-including Stalin and his purges-would agree. Also note that the people of China are voting with their wallets for the sort of society they want. And at last the people of Cuba-that prison island under Castro-are getting a first taste of the system they want, that system called democratic capitalism. Long live the open society, brother!


Umm, there has never been a communist government on this planet; simply a number of dictatorships that claimed to be working on making communist governments.

Yes, communism is unworkable because its too open to abuse by these people, but socialism itself is not an evil concept.


I believe you're right Gisen. It's possibly because human beings haven't yet found a way to achieve a revolutionary way of altering the way we all live that doesn't end up reverting to type by way of ghastliness and bloodshed.
I think we'll have managed to arrive nonviolently at a decent society once aphorisms that are implicitly violent, e.g. "Do as you would be done by" have become nonsensical and unknown by most, and sayings such as "To each according to their need, from each according to their ability" are commonly known instead.
patmac
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Joined: 13 Mar 2008, 11:48pm
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Post by patmac »

We've gone a long way off subject, and we can't go round for ever and ever, life is too short. Some points though:
It was Churchill, that sometime Tory/Liberal who said 'domocratic capitalism is the least worst form of government we've invented'. He was right. There are no ideal forms of government, because there are no ideal forms of people or society.
Socialism, like communism, won't work. It dosen't even work in apparently ideal socialist groups, like convents, nunneries, monesteries etc, places where there is supposed to be an ideal equality among all members of the group. Always there must be a top dog to run things, and always that top dog will arrange things to benefit, in however small a way, himself and those he chooses to surround himself with.
An ideal society would require an ideal human being. I've never met such a person, and never expect to. And if we could 'engineer' such an ideal person, ( and some scientist is going to try it in the not too distant future ) that ideal human being would in fact be something other than human. As long as two blokes can get into a scrap over Saturday's football results in the pub, or two women can scratch each other's eyes out at the sales, there will be war, dispute and bad government. Whoever wins the next election I just hope I can continue to live in the largely peaceful society I've enjoyed for the last 62 years, and that despite having served in the RAF on a bomber base through the Cold War.
Now, about religion, and bikes....
mhara

Post by mhara »

patmac wrote:...
Now, about religion, and bikes....

He,he,he,he,he,he,he ... nice way to make your point. :D :D
reohn2

Post by reohn2 »

patmac wrote:We've gone a long way off subject, and we can't go round for ever and ever, life is too short. Some points though:
It was Churchill, that sometime Tory/Liberal who said 'domocratic capitalism is the least worst form of government we've invented'. He was right. There are no ideal forms of government, because there are no ideal forms of people or society.
Socialism, like communism, won't work. It dosen't even work in apparently ideal socialist groups, like convents, nunneries, monesteries etc, places where there is supposed to be an ideal equality among all members of the group. Always there must be a top dog to run things, and always that top dog will arrange things to benefit, in however small a way, himself and those he chooses to surround himself with.
An ideal society would require an ideal human being. I've never met such a person, and never expect to. And if we could 'engineer' such an ideal person, ( and some scientist is going to try it in the not too distant future ) that ideal human being would in fact be something other than human. As long as two blokes can get into a scrap over Saturday's football results in the pub, or two women can scratch each other's eyes out at the sales, there will be war, dispute and bad government. Whoever wins the next election I just hope I can continue to live in the largely peaceful society I've enjoyed for the last 62 years, and that despite having served in the RAF on a bomber base through the Cold War.
Now, about religion, and bikes....


Whilst I agree with most of what you've said you seem to be under the assumption that everyone but you is either communist or socialist(?).
Just to put the record straight I haven't laid claim to either and nor has anyone else as far as I'm aware.
What I will say is that we(the nation) have IMO suffered since 1979 from a
series bad governments who have destroyed the country's,justice system,education system,manufacturing base,farming industry,and replaced it with a get rich quick stand on anyones head to do that society of which I'm embaressed to be part of.
I didn't mention the wars but I will now, three of them the Falklands,and two gulf wars which we should never been involved in,the Falklands war where there was enough inteligence for us to stop before it even started,and the two gulf wars which were nothing but for oil and oil alone.
I ramble forgive me.

As I said Patmac if you're satisfied with the Britain the way it is you're easy pleased.

I have three children and five grand children (soon to be six)and it is their future that Iam extremely worried about.

Now back to cycling or religion(if you must)but the title of the thread is about an ordinary man being knock off his bike on a busy well lit A road in one our major cities by a gang of youths in a stolen car,then driven around and even over whilst he lay dead or dying in the road, and no one came to his aid.
This to my mind is the sign of a very sick society.You may have another view.
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Peter Rowell
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Post by Peter Rowell »

I start from the premise that all politicians are liars, some more than others. This applies to journalists as well, they are PAID to write a story

I also consider politicians, journalists and conmen to be in the same group.
Leader - Tuesday Senior Cyclists' Group, Cambridge Cyclists' Touring Club
Organiser - Mid Anglia Computer Users.
axel_knutt
Posts: 3727
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 12:20pm

Post by axel_knutt »

jan19 wrote:Apparently an individual will stop and help in this sort of situation but a group will not.

jan19 has it about right. Two psychologists called John Darley and Bibb Latane did the research on this decades ago after a tenament full of people stood watching a woman being raped and murdered without callng the police. The whole attack took about 35 minutes, during which time the attacker went away twice after seeing lights in windows, but came back to finish the job after no police arrived.

D&L's research showed that whilst the probability of a lone witness intervening to help is 85%, this figure drops to just 31% when there are four or more witnesses. It also showed that if no one acts within the first three minutes, it’s unlikely that anyone will. These figures were based on a simulated epileptic siezure, so it's probably reasonable to assume that seriousness of other incidents will affect the probabilities one way or the other.

The major factor is embarrassment at breaking social etiquette ie: conformity. D&L also tested to see whether people would act to save themselves, as opposed to another, and found the same effect. Someone who is alone in a building they believe to be on fire will leave, but someone who is with others who ignore the danger will sit there and do nothing, apparently waiting to burn.

D&L identified five key stages involved in helping behaviour:


1. You must notice the incident.
2. You must interpret the incident as one where help is required.
3. You must assume personal responsibility.
4. You must decide what action to take.
5. You must act.


Step two would be undermined if you percieved a violent incident as a lover’s tiff, or a burglar as a person who’s lost his keys.
Three is undermined when there is more than one witness.
Four and five: D&L found that their subjects were scared, sweaty, and trembling afterwards, and unable to give a coherent account of their actions. They had been paralysed by indecision, and were not just apathetic as had been assumed.

As a footnote to all this, research by Arthur Beaman has shown that people who have been educated in D&L’s five steps are twice as likely to help in an emergency as people who haven’t.

Refs:
Lauren Slater, Opening Skinner's Box: Great Psychological Experiments of the 20th Century

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial%5...ty%5Fgenovese/

A. Beaman, P. Barnes, B. Klentz & B. Mcquirk, “Increasing Helping rates through information dissemination: Teaching Pays”, Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin 4 (1979) pp 406-11
workhard

Post by workhard »

Covered in a popular form in "Blink". No not "Blink" the geuninely scarey episode of "Dr Who" from series three but "Blink - The power of thinking without thinking" by Malcolm Gladwell

Can't say I agree with all of Mr Gladwell's conclusions but it made for interesting reading.
thirdcrank
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Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Post by thirdcrank »

With regard to AK's posting I am proud to record that a couple of years ago my wife (then in her late 50's) was attracted by a woman's scream outside her workplace in central Bradford. From the vantage point of the third floor she could see a young woman being assaulted by a man in the shrubbery of a car park on the opposite side of the busy street. She got a colleague to call the police and went to intervene accompanied by a female colleague (aged 65).

Stories sometimes do have a happy ending: as they emerged into the street two mounted police officers were passing, unaware of what was happening. The main thing this story proves is that men who are brave enough to assault women tend to go to pieces when pursued by police on horseback.
JQ666
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Joined: 15 Jan 2008, 4:05pm

Post by JQ666 »

patmac wrote:As opposed, say, to those other highly intelligent men Marx and Engels who though paradise on earth would ensue if we adopted the most extreme form of socialism world wide. I wonder if the people of the old Soviet Union who endured 70 years of 'paradise on earth'-including Stalin and his purges-would agree. Also note that the people of China are voting with their wallets for the sort of society they want. And at last the people of Cuba-that prison island under Castro-are getting a first taste of the system they want, that system called democratic capitalism. Long live the open society, brother!


Marx & Engels predict the woes of modern society back in 1844 - so whatever you think of so-called 'communist' dictatorships that have ruled the Soviet Union, Cuba, North Korea, China, and others - you can't deny that Marx & Engels were extremely intelligent thinkers.

A great shame we don't have anyone who compares today!

With regards to the Soviets - the outcome of their communism may have been a bit different if Lenin had survived - we will never know!

However, I agree with Adam Smith that the human being is naturally selfish, therefore in all political & economic systems (left or right), the men with the power will ultimately work for themselves and their cronies!
axel_knutt
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Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 12:20pm

Post by axel_knutt »

JQ666 wrote:However, I agree with Adam Smith that the human being is naturally selfish, therefore in all political & economic systems (left or right), the men with the power will ultimately work for themselves and their cronies!


Smith was right up to a point, but he was wrong in assuming that people are motivated by absolute wealth. In fact, once people have reached a basic standard of living, they are motivated by relative not absolute wealth. This accounts for why all the surveys of subjective well being show no improvement with increasing income.

At the root of the psychology lies status seeking, such that the Smiths are only happy when they have more than the Joneses, and the Joneses are only happy when they have more than the Smiths. Thus they end up locked into an environment-wrecking competition to consume more and more, when no amount of wealth can ever make them both happy at the same time. A Zero-Sum Game. For example, given the choice people will tend to opt for a job paying 25k in a department where others earn 24k, in preference to a 26k job where others earn 27k. Another bit of rather vicious research by Zizzo and Oswald shows that people will actually pay to see the incomes of others reduced by more. Pinker documents an amusing incident when two tribes got into a status seeking war. It started with each offering the other ever more lavish banquets, but once they had escalated to the point that they were eating all they could they then started trashing the food. Then, once they were trashing their whole food supply, the one upmanship spread to all their other belongings. It all culminated with each tribe setting fire to their village in order to demonstrate to the other that they could afford the waste. Unfortunately, status seeking isn't quite as petty as it might seem, morbidity and mortality have both been found to correlate with status independently of wealth, even within affluent groups such as civil servants. Psychology professor Daniel Kahneman has done much of the research on the psychology of economic choices. He won the Nobel Prize for economics in 2002.

Pinker and Veblen identify four canons of status seeking, viz:

Conspicuous leisure
Conspicuous consumption
Conspicuous waste
Conspicuous outrage

The first two are relatively self explanatory. The third, conspicuous waste, is just an extension of conspicuous consumption. If you can't consume what you buy, then waste it. This is what's going on with all the food waste that's currently in the media, having a fridge the size of a shed filled with food you can't eat is a status symbol. (As is paying 10 times the price for pre-packed rather than loose food. The packaging advertises the fact that it cost more, otherwise it would be self defeating if others can’t see the difference.) When Gordon Brown appeals to people to stop wasting food he's missing the point, it's a bit like telling Alan Sugar that he could save money by buying a Timex instead of a Rolex. It would just invite a funny look, and a comment something like "Yes, I know, that's the whole point".

Conspicuous outrage is the root cause of Fashion. The Top Dog in a social group can assert his status by doing something outrageously different. The message he sends is "My position in society or the group is so secure that I don't need to conform". People immediately below him in the social heirarchy can then elevate their status by mimicking the Top Dog and being as different as possible to those below. As the effect ripples down through the social heirarchy, so a fashion emerges. As soon as this occurs, the Top Dog now has his status undermined unless he changes again, and so the whole process keeps repeating endlessly.

The problem with fashion and status seeking is that they're environmentally and socially destructive. People are filling landfill sites with nearly new and serviceable goods at an escalating rate, simply to keep up with fashion and the Joneses. The whole economy becomes like a huge conveyor belt digging resources out of one hole in the ground, and burying them in another, and the whole political system is predicated on the need for the conveyor belt to keep accelerating at 2% per annum........
kwackers
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Post by kwackers »

axel_knutt wrote:<snip> The whole economy becomes like a huge conveyor belt digging resources out of one hole in the ground, and burying them in another, and the whole political system is predicated on the need for the conveyor belt to keep accelerating at 2% per annum........


Great post!
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