Cycling UK Forum

From the Times Online

Motorists who drove around the body of a cyclist as he lay dying on a road have been condemned as “inhumane”. Stephen Wills, 55, suffered fatal head injuries after being knocked off his bike in South Manchester by joyriders in a stolen car, which was found burnt out nearby. One motorist may have driven over the dying man, breaking his legs. A police source said: “It’s hard to believe drivers refused to stop and help.”

read more plus web-feedback at
http://timesonline.typepad.com/comment/2008/04/the-death-of-th.html

Yes,I heard about it on the news yesterday,the road on which it happened is quite a busy and very well lit.
Its just appalling I could weep at the lack of care people have for there fellow man.
Worst is if they are ever caught (which I doubt) they'll probably get 10years and be walking in less than five.

I thought this only happened in third world country's
Disgraceful, but the more we think of ourselves the worse it will get, people do not want to get involved any more ....I'm all right Jack

what is happening to us ? this sort of thing is happening all the time these days. A couple of years ago there was a case down in Sussex where a young girl collapsed in the road and people drove around her without stopping for ages.
It breaks my heart a little every time I hear of such callousness . I just hope that one day those passers by need help themselves and realise their selfishness

My love and condolences go to the man's family

There was an interesting comment on this on one of the news pages ( can't remember which). Apparently an individual will stop and help in this sort of situation but a group will not. In other words a lone motorist (or pedestrian) would have helped but because there were many cars nobody stopped.

I'm not sure quite what this proves except maybe we leave responsibility to everyone else unless there is nobody else....

I think that several things are involved in this type of thing.

When it's on a main road, the drivers of fast moving vehicles may simply not see what has happened, or be unsure and they are miles away in no time. Unless you believe that a driver who was not involeved would deliberately run the casualty over, that would account for his being hit after the initial injury.

On the other hand, not wanting to 'get involved' is pretty widespread in this country. I think some of it is about the way the system treats witnesses. Anyone giving evidence in our adversarial system is called by one side or the other. So, somebody may be an independent witness but they are treated as being partial. A credible witness of important facts will find their evidence ruthlessly attacked by the other side's advocate. No big deal for anybody familiar with the system but to the ordinary person in the street, to be virtually called a liar by a posh speaking toffee-nosed twit when you are only trying to help is unacceptable. That is made immeasurably worse in those cases where witnesses are threatened and receive little support or protection. Even people who have never experienced any of this hear about it from those who have.

The reluctance of witnesses to come forward is IMO one of the biggest possible ongoing miscarriages of justice.

It is very sad, but what it does not mean is that our society is on the edge of collapse etc etc (insert Daily Mail headline here). As a previous correspondent noted, he (the cyclist) would have been much better off on a quiet road, where there would have been a much higher probability of receiving assistance.

I don't know why this is - but it is a reproducible effect that was studied by some Dutch researchers some years ago following an incident in Amsterdam where a child drowned in a canal watched by more than 20 people - none of whom helped. The conclusion, I think, was that in a crowd situation, everyone assumes someone else will do something.

Toby

tobyj wrote:It is very sad, but what it does not mean is that our society is on the edge of collapse etc etc (insert Daily Mail headline here). As a previous correspondent noted, he (the cyclist) would have been much better off on a quiet road, where there would have been a much higher probability of receiving assistance.

I don't know why this is - but it is a reproducible effect that was studied by some Dutch researchers some years ago following an incident in Amsterdam where a child drowned in a canal watched by more than 20 people - none of whom helped. The conclusion, I think, was that in a crowd situation, everyone assumes someone else will do something.

Toby

Bunkum,I don't think we realise how near to collapse we are,people simply don't care,or if they do its not enough to do something about it.

We have a police force so over run by crime it is running flat out just to standstill and a judicial system so tied up with human rights its frightened of farting.
School teachers terrified of the people they are trying to educate and who they cannot discipline.I have a few friends who are schoolteachers most want out due to fear of physical abuse.
Nurses and doctors being threatened and abused physically and verbally ,with most if not all suffering from this aweful state of affairs.
I could go on.........
Do you honestly believe this is a good state of affairs?
Wake up Toby

Er, reohn2 -- do you read the daily mail?

Certain parts of our media set out to exploit their readers by feeding them trumped up, over-inflated and often fabricated stories of doom and gloom. To make sure you're not being taken advantage of it's a good idea to take a few news sources with different points of view and put them against each other. Once you see the fixed narrative which the stories are moulded and manipulated to revolve around then you have a chance of seeing things for what they are.

An example: all crime is down. When did you last read that in your newspaper?

yaxu wrote:Er, reohn2 -- do you read the daily mail?

Certain parts of our media set out to exploit their readers by feeding them trumped up, over-inflated and often fabricated stories of doom and gloom. To make sure you're not being taken advantage of it's a good idea to take a few news sources with different points of view and put them against each other. Once you see the fixed narrative which the stories are moulded and manipulated to revolve around then you have a chance of seeing things for what they are.

An example: all crime is down. When did you last read that in your newspaper?

I don't read or buy newspapers.

As for crime being down ,I'm wondering where you read that

Reported crime is down, thats because the only reason for reporting crime is if you need an incident number from the police so you can claim off your insurance.
People realise theres no point in reporting crime because theres no one going to do anything about it,thats because we haven't enough police to do anything and even if we had, the punishments don't fit the crimes,law and order is a joke and reminds me of the little dutch boy with his finger in the dyke, we need a new dyke. Wake up take a good long look at what what you're living in. (i think the song title was 'a gangsters paradise)How bad does it need to get before you realise how bad it actually is.

As for the rest of your post ,please afford me some semblence sense,I am capable of looking beyond the sick media circus we have in this country,and am aware when I'm being milked.

I'm also no tory gob***t but I can see standards across the board going down like a lead balloon.

Here, allow me to give your rose tinted specticles a clean for you

Sorry for the assumptions about your newspaper habits, didn't mean to offend!

Crime is down, though. Look at the methodology of the british crime survey -- it's not based on reported crime at all. To get a good picture contrast the british crime survey with police recorded crime, taking into consideration the sources of the figures. For example burglary is down, and people almost always report burglaries for the insurance reasons you mention.

Also I disagree that we don't have enough police or stricter sentencing. We have far too many people in prison, it's extremely expensive for everyone, a waste of life and largely counterproductive. In my opinion Norway has it right.

Of course there's plenty to be worried or even depressed about. Mostly things individuals can help with though. Other things, we may as well push them to the back of our minds and go cycling instead.

We shall have to agree to disagree,but look around what do you see?
I see less and less police on the streets and more and more cameras,cameras that don't deter criminals, if they thought they would be caught and if caught they would have to pay either by cash or hard labour
then they would think again.
If that is imposed at the begining of their criminal career they then may think its not worth it,as it is the system is a joke to them and the sentencing very lenient initially, therebye being no deterent.

I see lots of footpaths needing repair,litter picking up,chewing gum unpicking from the streets,cycle paths building,old folks gardens tending,and community work of all kinds needing doing.
Prisoners and offenders make a good labour force for the good of the community.

But forgive me I'm forgetting their human rights.

I am not advocating more putting more people in prison but making people pay for the damage they do, if it means until they're tripping over they're beards.
There are too many free lunches,and too many ordinary innocent folks having to put up with thugs getting away with it.

I'm seeing more and more crime and to hell with statistics.

We live in a country where an aeroplane can be hijacked by a group of people (Iranian as it happened)held hostage on the runway for over a week,then give themselves up (when they were tired and fed up and the passengers were terrified).After a lengthy and costly trial were convicted,appealled?????? then convicted again,twelve years later were released where upon they applied for asylum and it was granted on the grounds that they may have suffered if sent back to Iran.

A country where because of prison overcrowding,prisoners were let out early and as a result claimed they had no where to live and so were compensated.

A country where prisoners are seeking compensation for having their drug of choice taken away from them and having to go 'cold turkey' whilst serving their sentences.

A country where a serving soldier blown up by a roadside bomb in Iraq,flown home ( still in uniform) for treatment on the national health and asked when being taken into A&E would he mind if they removed his uniform as it may 'disturb' the other patients.

Where teachers can't disipline pupils for fear of their human rights

Where doctors,nurses and other medical staff are constantly abused during their job and accepted as normal.

Where snotty nose twelve year olds walk across the road infront of your car looking straight at me goading me to run them down if I dare.

Need I go on.

I don't think there are any traffic police anymore? they've been replaced by the cone monkeys on the motorway (Highways Agency) and speed cameras on the roads.

Cities use numberplate cameras to check for stolen cars and then they send out a police car if they find one.

There's little or no police presence I can see.

gilesjuk wrote:There's little or no police presence I can see.

It must vary across the different forces. The last few trips I've made in Devon (M5, north Devon link road, A38) I've seen police vehicles more than once, plus seen drivers pulled over on each trip. So police presence very much visible in Devon at least.

mhara wrote:

gilesjuk wrote:There's little or no police presence I can see.

It must vary across the different forces. The last few trips I've made in Devon (M5, north Devon link road, A38) I've seen police vehicles more than once, plus seen drivers pulled over on each trip. So police presence very much visible in Devon at least.

Wish could say the same for the Greater Manchester/Cheshire area.