A63 - Victory for common sense -?

AndyK
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Re: Is time trialling to be banned on dual carriageways (A63)

Postby AndyK » 14 Sep 2018, 9:45am

Lance Dopestrong wrote:I should wear my glasses more often - I thought the title of this thread was Time Travelling to be Banned :lol:

That's the problem with the A63 - all those DeLoreans on it, trying to reach 88mph. :-)

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Is time trialling to be banned on dual carriageways (A63)

Postby The utility cyclist » 14 Sep 2018, 10:56am

However the problem still exists that the A63 is not a place you'd really want to choose to cycle other than on a Sunday morning or other quiet times.

This is going to be made worse in Hull City centre, the redevelopment of the A63 as it runs through the city centre is yet more of the same, to make the environment so hostile that people on bikes simply won't use it unless you're a steadfast, hardened rider.
Currently it's a 30mph zone with several pedestrian crossings and junctions, the new Castle street development will make it into a higher speed road with no obstacles, getting across is now going to be limited to one narrow footbridge with lifts at either side for mobility vehicle users so making it a real bane for people on bikes, because having a nice sweeping ramp was obviously too difficult.

Still, the campaign highlights what a bunch of insidious and dumb people HE are yet it's replicated throughout the country at all levels of government and their agencies. :twisted: Nothing will change in reality, even so called superhighways are anything but, even the new cycle lanes in Manchester aren't all that IMO.

David9694
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A63 - Victory for common sense -?

Postby David9694 » 14 Sep 2018, 7:52pm

Duncan Dollimore sounds triumphant in his email to CTC/ CUK members about this, but I’m not so sure about the worth of this apparant victory with Highways England. Economists call it the opportunity cost - what else could (or should) we have committedour energy and our limited lobbying “capital” to doing, I wonder?

I totally get the point of principle here “bikes are a problem/a danger here - solution: ban them” - indeed I find it quite worrying how often I hear people saying x should be banned from doing y and c should be made to do d.

I don’t know the particular area, but looking as the OS map, we’re talking about from the end of the M62 into the centre of Hull - is this a route anyone actually wants or needs to ride? Should we reserve our energies for something that would be of more practical value to cyclists? I’m concerned that we could be portrayed by our critics as “zealots wanting to send cyclists down a 70 mph road just to make a point”.

I’ve been for a cross-country drive today from outside Salisbury to outside Bristol and I’m pretty gloomy about it, distressed even. Days like today bring home to you that traffic is a problem all day long (you used to be OK if you avoided rush hour) and the that measures put in to relieve and divert traffic are themselves choked-up - you find yourself by-passing the bypass. Town centres (and today A and B roads) are an unpredictably moving continuous metal snake or chain along the road, to the exclusion of anyone/anything else. I saw the only occasional cyclists braving that lot of which I was part.

PH
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Re: A63 - Victory for common sense -?

Postby PH » 14 Sep 2018, 8:03pm

Yes, Cycling UK were right to be part of the campaign.
Last edited by Graham on 14 Sep 2018, 8:11pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: redundant text removed after topic merge

brynpoeth
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Re: A63 - Victory for common sense -?

Postby brynpoeth » 14 Sep 2018, 8:07pm

Driven that road several times. Would not want to cycle it

But if cycling is banned on more and more roads, where will it stop?

Agree, it really is sickening to see constant motor traffic all day, midday, Sundays, late evenings races on public roads :(
Last edited by brynpoeth on 15 Sep 2018, 7:18pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cycling? Of course, but it is far better on a Gillott.. Alternative facts welcome

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The utility cyclist
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Re: A63 - Victory for common sense -?

Postby The utility cyclist » 14 Sep 2018, 11:38pm

David9694 wrote:Duncan Dollimore sounds triumphant in his email to CTC/ CUK members about this, but I’m not so sure about the worth of this apparant victory with Highways England. Economists call it the opportunity cost - what else could (or should) we have committedour energy and our limited lobbying “capital” to doing, I wonder?

I totally get the point of principle here “bikes are a problem/a danger here - solution: ban them” - indeed I find it quite worrying how often I hear people saying x should be banned from doing y and c should be made to do d.

I don’t know the particular area, but looking as the OS map, we’re talking about from the end of the M62 into the centre of Hull - is this a route anyone actually wants or needs to ride? Should we reserve our energies for something that would be of more practical value to cyclists? I’m concerned that we could be portrayed by our critics as “zealots wanting to send cyclists down a 70 mph road just to make a point”.

I’ve been for a cross-country drive today from outside Salisbury to outside Bristol and I’m pretty gloomy about it, distressed even. Days like today bring home to you that traffic is a problem all day long (you used to be OK if you avoided rush hour) and the that measures put in to relieve and divert traffic are themselves choked-up - you find yourself by-passing the bypass. Town centres (and today A and B roads) are an unpredictably moving continuous metal snake or chain along the road, to the exclusion of anyone/anything else. I saw the only occasional cyclists braving that lot of which I was part.

Sorry, don't agree with what you are saying. To simply give in would be thin end of the wedge, IF and that is a big if, HE decide they want to provide a 4m wide bi-directional lane along all trunk roads that has absolute priority at every junction, maybe, just maybe that would be acceptable to everyone.
Fact is, that will never, ever happen and thus we need to fight these people from removing our innate right to ride on the roads. Frankly given how safe hard shoulders are compared to many roads we should be allowed to cycle on the hard shoulder of motorways too.

David9694
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Re: A63 - Victory for common sense -?

Postby David9694 » 15 Sep 2018, 9:11am

I mentioned my day out because I wonder if experiences like this [ahem] drive a range of reactions. Certainly when you’re queueing just to join another queue, the cars ahead slither through the lights in twos and threes, you’re likely to say “something must be done about this: I summon the traffic engineers and the town planners - wreak havoc!” Those guys did their best over the years and now it’s not enough (didn’t see that coming, hey?).

But does it go beyond this? you may start to feel like the country is over-populated, you can’t move and so let’s do something about that - like stopping immigration? I needn’t do or change anything myself, this has got to be someone else’s fault,right? [sarcasm that last bit, for the avoidance of doubt.]

So what I need to do this fine morning is go on our two hour circular footpath walk from our house and we’ll barely see a soul.

Back to the A63, weren’t Humberside Police part of the now defeated call to ban bikes? I sometimes post on Road.cc where the close pass videos and stories of police inaction result in a lot of nasty name-calling of the police by some posters. I think this is stupid - as vulnerable road users we NEED the police to restore order and provide road justice. Peeing them off isn’t going get them to like us more.

I think the phrase used, “victory for common sense” is particularly unfortunate and could have come from a tabloid headline, in fact the very story in which HE get the ban by winning on appeal, or something. “Common sense” is a very problematic concept - we have politics exactly because our outlook on what counts as “common sense” or “the obvious” varies hugely beyond a small set of core values and principles.

If I’m remembering right about the police favouring the proposed A63 ban then it’s only after careful thought that I’d go against their express wishes. I’d encourage them to think about it more deeply, but I’d want to stay on-side with them if possible. Like we did with the close pass kit initiative.

As I say, I get the point of principle, flood-gates, etc. It’s a finely balanced thing - we risk letting the rot set in if we don’t get our retaliation in first. I accept that concern. But I think the “you didn’t mind when we banned you on the A63, what makes this so different?” can be countered if we’ve picked our battle(s) a bit more smartly.

That’s why in the longer term I’m concerned this particular outcome isn’t going to be the “win” it is being trumpeted as by CUK.

brynpoeth
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Re: A63 - Victory for common sense -?

Postby brynpoeth » 15 Sep 2018, 9:25am

You are part of the problem (so am I :?)
There are trains between Salisbury and Bath
Yesterday I was part of the solution, made a trip by cycle + train although it was more expensive and slower than driving, took maybe twice as long, trains at 2h intervals, had to stand on the way back :wink:

The battle has been won but not the war. Do any cyclists other than TTers use the A63?
Cycling? Of course, but it is far better on a Gillott.. Alternative facts welcome

brynpoeth
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Re: A63 - Victory for common sense -?

Postby brynpoeth » 15 Sep 2018, 9:27am

Does DD of the CTC cycle that bit of road?
Cycling? Of course, but it is far better on a Gillott.. Alternative facts welcome

David9694
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Re: A63 - Victory for common sense -?

Postby David9694 » 16 Sep 2018, 12:05pm

brynpoeth wrote:You are part of the problem (so am I :?)
There are trains between Salisbury and Bath
Yesterday I was part of the solution, made a trip by cycle + train although it was more expensive and slower than driving, took maybe twice as long, trains at 2h intervals, had to stand on the way back :wink:

The battle has been won but not the war. Do any cyclists other than TTers use the A63?


true but

1, if your destination as National Trust property as our was, these are nearly always accessible only to cars or long distance cyclists - it’s a headache all round as they are often struggling with parking space these days

2. That particular route is operated by FGW using three car units, which for most of the journey tend to be cattle trucks - normally the TOC makes no difference, but this is positively off-putting, if say you want a nice relaxing journey on your day out to Bath or Portsmouth - it’s a real shame.

While it’s double the time and you say double the expense, clearly most people aren’t going to bother - must things get so bad before people change their approach?

Even if the A63 bike ban came to pass, would TTers be able to get permission to run specific organised events?

Jon Lucas
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Re: A63 - Victory for common sense -?

Postby Jon Lucas » 16 Sep 2018, 8:05pm

David9694 wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:You are part of the problem (so am I :?)
There are trains between Salisbury and Bath
Yesterday I was part of the solution, made a trip by cycle + train although it was more expensive and slower than driving, took maybe twice as long, trains at 2h intervals, had to stand on the way back :wink:

The battle has been won but not the war. Do any cyclists other than TTers use the A63?


true but

1, if your destination as National Trust property as our was, these are nearly always accessible only to cars or long distance cyclists - it’s a headache all round as they are often struggling with parking space these days

2. That particular route is operated by FGW using three car units, which for most of the journey tend to be cattle trucks - normally the TOC makes no difference, but this is positively off-putting, if say you want a nice relaxing journey on your day out to Bath or Portsmouth - it’s a real shame.

While it’s double the time and you say double the expense, clearly most people aren’t going to bother - must things get so bad before people change their approach?

Even if the A63 bike ban came to pass, would TTers be able to get permission to run specific organised events?


As it happens, we cycled from Bath to Salisbury on Friday. It is a fantastic ride, utterly quiet country lanes and some stunningly beautiful countryside. The route into Salisbury is also, for the most part, excellent. Caught the train back on Saturday. Living in GWR land (it's not FGW any more) we know the limitations of cycle carriage on them well, but although space is at a premium, you can usually get on outside the rush hour (and as I was riding a Brompton it wasn't a problem for me). Salisbury was looking lovely, and the people there would really appreciate some more visitors coming...

As you mentioned National Trust property, here in Bath we do have Prior Park, which has no parking at all, so that you have to arrive by bike, walk or public transport, or park a long way away. NT really need to be doing that in some of their other properties.

Back on topic, yes CTC were quite right to be involved in this campaign.

Grandad
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Re: A63 - Victory for common sense -?

Postby Grandad » 16 Sep 2018, 9:17pm

NT really need to be doing that in some of their other properties


With the reduction in visitor numbers if this were done it would be turkeys voting for christmas :(

David9694
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Re: A63 - Victory for common sense -?

Postby David9694 » 17 Sep 2018, 8:49pm

Jon Lucas wrote:
David9694 wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:You are part of the problem (so am I :?)


As it happens, we cycled from Bath to Salisbury on Friday. It is a fantastic ride, utterly quiet country lanes and some stunningly beautiful countryside. The route into Salisbury is also, for the most part, excellent. Caught the train back on Saturday.

Back on topic, yes CTC were quite right to be involved in this campaign.


I attempted Bath to Salisbury a couple of years ago - but broke my chain at Frome and had to abandon. I’ve been out from Salisbury as far as Warminster - did you take the NCR through Longleat.

This current government’s love affair with the pre 1947 Rail companies. LNER, GWR - the latter had a publicity department that systematically built the GWR myth that still endures.

Jon Lucas
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Re: A63 - Victory for common sense -?

Postby Jon Lucas » 18 Sep 2018, 7:09pm

David9694 wrote:
Jon Lucas wrote:
David9694 wrote:
As it happens, we cycled from Bath to Salisbury on Friday. It is a fantastic ride, utterly quiet country lanes and some stunningly beautiful countryside. The route into Salisbury is also, for the most part, excellent. Caught the train back on Saturday.

Back on topic, yes CTC were quite right to be involved in this campaign.


I attempted Bath to Salisbury a couple of years ago - but broke my chain at Frome and had to abandon. I’ve been out from Salisbury as far as Warminster - did you take the NCR through Longleat.

This current government’s love affair with the pre 1947 Rail companies. LNER, GWR - the latter had a publicity department that systematically built the GWR myth that still endures.


Yes, we cycled out via Frome, because we were visiting friends there, and then went via Longleat and Crockerton into the Wyley valley, which is excellent cycling terrain. For anyone going to Longleat right now, the signed route towards Horningssham is closed as it is being used for access to a large event there, and we were directed to go up a horrendously long hill to the east, which exhausted me. There is another road out that takes you just west of Horningsham, which climbs far less, and we would have used that had we known.

David9694
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Re: A63 - Victory for common sense -?

Postby David9694 » 18 Sep 2018, 8:00pm

I recommend the ViewRanger app for navigation.