Cycling UK Forum

peetee wrote:My brother has a hybrid petrol/electric VW Golf. He is a real tech-head and was telling me how it automatically swaps from one to the other under different driving conditions. He did admit that he has no idea how the thing operates or whether it has any cost savings benefits. I took the conversation further by speculating at what point the vehicle becomes truly un-economic to own. We both came to the conclusion that there is a very real possibility that when the batteries need replacing the car will be at such an age that it's residual value will probably be exceeded by the cost of replacing the batteries and the whole car will just go for scrap. The real point is of course that we as consumers don't really know the cost of this tech, in real terms, either to our pockets or more importantly to the environment.

Prii are well over 200K on original batteries now - extending useful lifespan long after many ICEs have ceased to be an economic repair.

In short, we do know.

A few years ago, Sodium-Sulphur (Oh OK: "Sodium-Sulfur") batteries were the new upcoming technology of the future. Problem was, they had to operate at over 300°C, and the prospect of molten sodium (nasty stuff, at any temperature) splashing all over the car occupants in the event of an accident, put the industry off.

Apparently substituting a Sodium-Caesium alloy reduces the operating temperature quite a bit, and makes this technology more feasible. At present caesium is rather expensive, but if the demand is there, the cost will come down won't it? It is not particularly abundant, but then neither is cadmium, widely used in some batteries...

Whatever happens, Li-ion is not the ultimate solution. Where do we stand with hydrogen fuel cells?

Infrastructure is way too costly, AIUI.

For sure VW have a history when it comes to emissions and I'm sure they are not alone in fiddling tests.

After the huge cost to VW when it all came out I doubt they'd risk something like this again with their new electric car. The sale of electric cars Is becoming a huge market and VW want their share.

Testing is a grey area and I doubt the figure of 300 miles was achieved under really arduous testing.

Battery longevity is a concern, not just cost but disposal too. The 'rare' metals needed for these batteries, they must be able to be recycled surely?

I've just come back from Florence (quite a polluted place) and a lot of the taxis are Toyota Prius. In use a lot have a warning sound when moving, very necessary in the narrow streets.
As a cyclist I wonder if a warning sound should be made standard on electric vehicles? I use my ears as much as my eyes to check for traffic.

francovendee wrote:Testing is a grey area and I doubt the figure of 300 miles was achieved under really arduous testing.

Most manufacturers give the crap figure and an honest figure.
I think how they're tested is changing to use more realistic conditions too.

Battery longevity is a concern, not just cost but disposal too. The 'rare' metals needed for these batteries, they must be able to be recycled surely?

The battery's are recycled, but the problem is they're lasting longer than was expected so there simply aren't many turning up yet.
Where they do turn up the normal procedure is to dismantle the battery, test and grade the cells and make them up into power packs, reconditioned batteries or recycle the materials.

The 'rare' metals actually account for not much of the battery, the majority of it is aluminium and copper both of which can be easily recycled. The amount of lithium is pretty low and in newer batteries its even less.

I've just come back from Florence (quite a polluted place) and a lot of the taxis are Toyota Prius. In use a lot have a warning sound when moving, very necessary in the narrow streets.
As a cyclist I wonder if a warning sound should be made standard on electric vehicles? I use my ears as much as my eyes to check for traffic.

Eventually folk will learn to look as well as listen because if an electric car doesn't get them then a cyclist will

But again ime electric cars aren't silent. Assuming they haven't got the pedestrian warning beeper turned on then at anything more than a few mph you can hear the motors, much over 20 and just like normal cars tyre noise becomes the predominant one.
Most electric cars being 'modern' also have anti collision devices or at least a collision warning so there's an extra level of help there if an old granny suddenly boots it when reversing out of a spot at Tesco.

francovendee wrote:For sure VW have a history when it comes to emissions and I'm sure they are not alone in fiddling tests.

A journalist in one broadsheet managed 53mpg in a Golf GTE the same as my brother's car mentioned previously. That included a proportion of electric drive, the cost of which would have to be added to that of the petrol. My 100,000 mile VW Passat averaged 58mpg and was a first generation direct injection turbo diesel from 20 years ago and a bigger and more versatile vehicle to boot.
One wonders just how far technology has got us in real terms. Nothing is going to convince me that the Golf is a more environmentally sensible choice than my Passat.

Nothing would convince you?

You might try piping some of that direct injection turbo-diesel exhaust into the driving compartment, it might just change your mind

My comments were in terms of comparison. It's all academic anyway as I don't own a car at present. I am fortunate enough that my lifestyle doesn't dictate that a vehicle is a necessity. It is tempting to have one but the garage is full of bikes and long may that be so.

The new passat has an electric range of up to 50 km, maximum 50 km, could be much much less

BTW it is named after a sailing ship

The best quote I've heard is that it isn't "miles per charge" that is the important range it is "miles per bladder" - how far/long can you go before you need to stop to empty it. I certainly wouldn't be doing a 300-400+ mile drive without stopping for a break or two. The difference with an electric car is you stop & plug it into a fast charger then go to the loo, have a coffee & when you come back you're good to go. You can't really do that while you fill up with petrol. Absolute range shouldn't be the be all & end all, it just needs a somewhat different mindset.

For charging the figure I've heard is that something like 85% of charging is done at home or work. If you can charge at home it's almost like having petrol on tap & you can have a "full tank" every day. Fast charging on long trips is generally a rarity for most electric car users.

On battery life & recycling Tesla &, more recently, Renault are producing battery storage for in the home. They are intended as a second life for the batteries as the demands of powering a home are so much less than running a car. The biggest problem to date has been that the car batteries have vastly exceeded initial expectation so the home units are mostly being filled with new batteries.

Why would anyone even consider buying a German hybrid vehicle anyway? Quite aside from the moral turpitude of the VAG group; all the decades VW, MB and BMW were busy refining (cough) their diesels,Toyota and Honda have been quietly getting on with developing efficient hybrids. The Japanese are literally decades ahead.

661-Pete wrote:Where do we stand with hydrogen fuel cells?

"About 10 years away." (Has been for the last 30 years or so )

Mark R wrote: ........... The Japanese are literally decades ahead.

We have a 2014 Yaris Hybrid, and it's wonderful. Positively the best car we've ever owned.
Not necessarily for the build quality - as it's fairly normal in that - but for the drive quality. Absolute pleasure and relaxing to drive.

Engine plus EV is 130bhp, which is brilliant for pulling away or overtaking. The whole 130bhp isn't continuously available because the system software protects the battery, but it is available for a ten seconds or so. Combine this with the constant velocity transmission, the power is instant and immediate at the press of the pedal. Far far far FAR better than an automatic gearbox.

If you're gentle, you can get 60mpg or even 70mpg. Keep the speed down on the motorway to about 60mph and it'll return 65mpg.

Mark R wrote:Why would anyone even consider buying a German hybrid vehicle anyway? Quite aside from the moral turpitude of the VAG group; all the decades VW, MB and BMW were busy refining (cough) their diesels,Toyota and Honda have been quietly getting on with developing efficient hybrids. The Japanese are literally decades ahead.

They started decades earlier, that's not quite the same as being decades ahead.

Mick F wrote:

Mark R wrote: ........... The Japanese are literally decades ahead.

We have a 2014 Yaris Hybrid, and it's wonderful. Positively the best car we've ever owned.
Not necessarily for the build quality - as it's fairly normal in that - but for the drive quality. Absolute pleasure and relaxing to drive.

Engine plus EV is 130bhp, which is brilliant for pulling away or overtaking. The whole 130bhp isn't continuously available because the system software protects the battery, but it is available for a ten seconds or so. Combine this with the constant velocity transmission, the power is instant and immediate at the press of the pedal. Far far far FAR better than an automatic gearbox.

If you're gentle, you can get 60mpg or even 70mpg. Keep the speed down on the motorway to about 60mph and it'll return 65mpg.

Feels small amount of pride on recommendation

It is just brilliantly resolved, isn't it