Turkish Moral High Ground over the Saudis

[Tangled Metal]

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/26/erdogan-cannot-claim-moral-high-ground-over-khashoggi-say-critics

Interesting phrase in that piece.

“Right now [Erdoğan] has the moral high ground against Saudi Arabia,”

Quote from Ilhan Tanir, a Turkish journalist living in self-imposed exile in Washington DC.

It might not be very high ground considering the morality of Saudi Arabian activities and society. I think it's barely above sea level personally. Turkey could really do better without really trying. It is just another Turkish power play. Let's see what Turkey gets out of the Saudis to let it die down. Erdoğan doesn't do anything big like this without personal gain.

[pwa]

Yes, Erdogan must find it very nice to have a regime to look down on. I've never tried doing it, but it would be interesting to rank states according to Human Rights. The murdering thugs of the Saud family must be near the very bottom, the Turks not great but definitely a few steps up from that rock bottom standard.

[georgew]

Yes, Erdogan must find it very nice to have a regime to look down on. I've never tried doing it, but it would be interesting to rank states according to Human Rights. The murdering thugs of the Saud family must be near the very bottom, the Turks not great but definitely a few steps up from that rock bottom standard.

You think?

Perhaps the Kurds might have a different view given the chemical attacks made upon them by Turkish forces. Again the number of journalists killed for disseminating a particular political view does make this doubtful.

The issue is being used to lever concessions from SA, and Erdogan's failure to give the audio evidence of the murder to the Turkish Parliament would seem to support this view.

[661-Pete]

I seem to recall, it was Turkey's impending (and wholly fictitious, as it turned out) 'application' to join the EU, that fuelled much of the arguments put across by the Brex**iteers, pre-referendum. Perhaps some people are more disposed to be friendly to Mr E now? Not I!

[Psamathe]

Related (when it comes to "morals") is that our own (UK) Royal Family is now proposing closer ties between the UK and Saudis. So clearly killing off reporters does seem to bother our Royal Family. Noting that ".... a UN investigator said Khashoggi was the victim of an “extrajudicial execution” carried out by the Saudi state and said those who orchestrated and committed the killing “are high enough to represent the state”.". It does make me wonder if I really want to be considered "British" when I that makes me a "subject" of such people (particularly when I'm forced to contribute to their lavish lifestyle).

Prince Andrew's bid to strengthen ties with Saudi Arabia sparks backlash following Khashoggi murder
...
The Duke of York told entrepreneurs at the Emirates Palace in Abu Dhabi that he hoped to expand his Pitch@Palace initiative to the kingdom.

His enthusiasm for Saudi Arabia at the event on Thursday contrasted with the alarm expressed by business leaders and politicians around the world since Mr Khashoggi’s disappearance three weeks ago.

Ian

[pwa]

Related (when it comes to "morals") is that our own (UK) Royal Family is now proposing closer ties between the UK and Saudis. So clearly killing off reporters does seem to bother our Royal Family. Noting that ".... a UN investigator said Khashoggi was the victim of an “extrajudicial execution” carried out by the Saudi state and said those who orchestrated and committed the killing “are high enough to represent the state”.". It does make me wonder if I really want to be considered "British" when I that makes me a "subject" of such people (particularly when I'm forced to contribute to their lavish lifestyle).

Prince Andrew's bid to strengthen ties with Saudi Arabia sparks backlash following Khashoggi murder
...
The Duke of York told entrepreneurs at the Emirates Palace in Abu Dhabi that he hoped to expand his Pitch@Palace initiative to the kingdom.

His enthusiasm for Saudi Arabia at the event on Thursday contrasted with the alarm expressed by business leaders and politicians around the world since Mr Khashoggi’s disappearance three weeks ago.

Ian

It's a moral dilemma, Ian. What do you care about most? The undeniable and terrible crimes of the Saudis, or the many well paid jobs at Wharton and other parts of the UK. The Royals just do what they are told they have to do to preserve UK jobs. I'm not saying what the answer is, just posing the question. Have we been bought? And if so can we afford the cost of breaking free?

[bovlomov]

And if so can we afford the cost of breaking free?

There's been a cost of supporting the Saudis. Namely, the spread of an extreme and violent version of Islam, across the globe. How much has that cost us, in money, resources and lives? And how much has it cost in our freedoms, that have been curtailed, supposedly, to counter that threat?

Saudi money makes a few British people very rich - the sort of people who don't pay tax here. And the Saudis have provided the oil for our car addiction. For the country as a whole, I reckon, sucking up to the Saudis has been catastrophic.

[reohn2]

I seem to recall, it was Turkey's impending (and wholly fictitious, as it turned out) 'application' to join the EU, that fuelled much of the arguments put across by the Brex**iteers, pre-referendum. Perhaps some people are more disposed to be friendly to Mr E now? Not I!

I was chatting with a woman this week about the brexit mess,her main reason for voting out was her fear of Turkey joining the EU.
She was totally taken aback when informed her that any one of the EU members could veto them joining and that since we'll be out soon the UK has forgone that opportunity.
Goes to show how muddled and uninformed people can be.

[reohn2]

And if so can we afford the cost of breaking free?

There's been a cost of supporting the Saudis. Namely, the spread of an extreme and violent version of Islam, across the globe. How much has that cost us, in money, resources and lives? And how much has it cost in our freedoms, that have been curtailed, supposedly, to counter that threat?

Saudi money makes a few British people very rich - the sort of people who don't pay tax here. And the Saudis have provided the oil for our car addiction. For the country as a whole, I reckon, sucking up to the Saudis has been catastrophic.

Plus one.
You'd think there were no other alternative to selling arms to murderous extremists because they have all the oil

The effort put into developing fighter bombers and other killing machines for profit for the few could very well be channelled into a more benign power source.However capitalism in it's present UK neoliberalist form would have us believe there isn't

I challenge anyone who thinks arms sales to murderers is ethical to think outside the box!

[mercalia]

And if so can we afford the cost of breaking free?

There's been a cost of supporting the Saudis. Namely, the spread of an extreme and violent version of Islam, across the globe. How much has that cost us, in money, resources and lives? And how much has it cost in our freedoms, that have been curtailed, supposedly, to counter that threat?

Saudi money makes a few British people very rich - the sort of people who don't pay tax here. And the Saudis have provided the oil for our car addiction. For the country as a whole, I reckon, sucking up to the Saudis has been catastrophic.

there is hope with electric cars about 20 years is it then no more new petrol cars? hopefully by then no more oil burnt to make electricity then Saudi can sink back into the medieval backwater it should be?

[Cyril Haearn]

Saudi and other countries are future-proofing themselves, doubtless with help from the West

[Psamathe]

Related (when it comes to "morals") is that our own (UK) Royal Family is now proposing closer ties between the UK and Saudis. So clearly killing off reporters does seem to bother our Royal Family. Noting that ".... a UN investigator said Khashoggi was the victim of an “extrajudicial execution” carried out by the Saudi state and said those who orchestrated and committed the killing “are high enough to represent the state”.". It does make me wonder if I really want to be considered "British" when I that makes me a "subject" of such people (particularly when I'm forced to contribute to their lavish lifestyle).

Prince Andrew's bid to strengthen ties with Saudi Arabia sparks backlash following Khashoggi murder
...
The Duke of York told entrepreneurs at the Emirates Palace in Abu Dhabi that he hoped to expand his Pitch@Palace initiative to the kingdom.

His enthusiasm for Saudi Arabia at the event on Thursday contrasted with the alarm expressed by business leaders and politicians around the world since Mr Khashoggi’s disappearance three weeks ago.

Ian

It's a moral dilemma, Ian. What do you care about most? The undeniable and terrible crimes of the Saudis, or the many well paid jobs at Wharton and other parts of the UK. The Royals just do what they are told they have to do to preserve UK jobs. I'm not saying what the answer is, just posing the question. Have we been bought? And if so can we afford the cost of breaking free?

I don't believe it is an "either/or". Those peoples jobs are dependent on the the Saudi war machine because we have allowed it to happen and it will go on happening as long as we allow it to go on happening.

There are alternative more sustainable industries that the UK has great strengths in. Run down the war machine and other industries will spring-up if there are qualified experienced people available. Though right now Brexit is probably hindering that, but we are following a path of dependency on Saudi human rights abuses where we (as a country) should be setting a strategy for more sustainable industries. What about renewables (hi-tech, manufacturing ...), loads of other possibilities.

When something is "wrong" continuing to do it or ignoring the "wrong" does not make it "right".

Ian

[661-Pete]

Related (when it comes to "morals") is that our own (UK) Royal Family is now proposing closer ties between the UK and Saudis. So clearly killing off reporters does seem to bother our Royal Family. Noting that ".... a UN investigator said Khashoggi was the victim of an “extrajudicial execution” carried out by the Saudi state and said those who orchestrated and committed the killing “are high enough to represent the state”.". It does make me wonder if I really want to be considered "British" when I that makes me a "subject" of such people (particularly when I'm forced to contribute to their lavish lifestyle).

Prince Andrew's bid to strengthen ties with Saudi Arabia sparks backlash following Khashoggi murder
...
The Duke of York told entrepreneurs at the Emirates Palace in Abu Dhabi that he hoped to expand his Pitch@Palace initiative to the kingdom.

His enthusiasm for Saudi Arabia at the event on Thursday contrasted with the alarm expressed by business leaders and politicians around the world since Mr Khashoggi’s disappearance three weeks ago.

Ian

I have long had misgivings about Prince Andrew.

(Speaking as an anti-monarchist): insofar as we have to accept the presence of a titular Head of State, whether hereditary or not .... I think Andrew stands apart as a disgrace to the whole establishment. At least other Royals - the Queen and the direct line of succession - have the commonsense and decency to distance themselves from such unpleasant stuff.

My feeling is, Andrew should be disinherited and stripped of his ducal title. That'd learn 'im! But I know it won't happen....

[reohn2]

...... That'd learn 'im! But I know it won't happen....

Teach him Pete teach him

[thirdcrank]

661-Pete

I recommend Rebel Prince by Tom Bower to disabuse you of some of your beliefs.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rebel-Prince-D ... 000829173X