Trp levers with shimano

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webber
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Joined: 2 May 2012, 3:48pm

Trp levers with shimano

Postby webber » 11 Jan 2019, 7:31am


Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Trp levers with shimano

Postby Brucey » 11 Jan 2019, 11:56am

I've not used these levers myself so I have no direct knowledge of the MA (mechanical advantage) but here

https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/BLTRPRRLSR/trp-rrl-sr-vintage-style-road-brake-levers

it suggests that they have a short cable pull so are good for road calipers and cantis. It appears as if the cable attachment is close to the pivot, and if so the MA is high, maybe as high as 4:1. This surprises me.

The brake calipers (BR-R561) are (another surprise) listed amongst those which are compatible with current (New Super SLR) brake levers, which have a lower MA and a long cable pull than is correct for first generation DP (dual pivot) calipers.

So I think the answer is 'no' but it is exactly the other way round from what I'd thought; this combination will probably give a mushy brake with less running clearance at the rim than is desirable.

I think with those brake levers you would be better off with a first generation DP caliper, eg from another manufacturer or from shimano groupset with a launch date pre 2008. Of current shimano calipers BR-R650 and BR-R451 have the correct cable pull but they also have a different reach.

Note that the actual caliper MA depends on where the brake blocks are set in the slot; thus the caliper MA of a short reach NSSLR caliper with the brake blocks in the bottom of the slot is about the same as a first generation DP caliper with the blocks in the top of the slot.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Samuel D
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Location: Paris

Re: Trp levers with shimano

Postby Samuel D » 11 Jan 2019, 12:51pm

For a moment then I thought the BR-R561 was (at long last!) a 57 mm drop calliper for New Super SLR cable pull (or the similar SLR EV, although I think the cam action of that one is slightly different throughout the pull?).

In addition to the mushy feel that this lever-calliper combination would provide, you run the risk of the lever hitting the bars before generating full braking in an emergency stop. For this reason, Shimano bans the combo (but not combos mismatched in the other way). If you run it anyway, you’d have to carefully adjust the barrel for pad wear on a frequent basis (including mid-ride). I do that anyway but not all cyclists will be bothered.

If you already have the levers, there are plenty of NOS or good-condition Super SLR callipers on eBay. If you already have the brakes, there are plenty of more suitable levers. Best to get it right when you have that choice, I think.

webber
Posts: 262
Joined: 2 May 2012, 3:48pm

Re: Trp levers with shimano

Postby webber » 11 Jan 2019, 3:46pm

Cheers for the replys i have the calipers so looking for brake levers any suggestions

webber
Posts: 262
Joined: 2 May 2012, 3:48pm

Re: Trp levers with shimano

Postby webber » 11 Jan 2019, 3:53pm

Would these work with the calipers https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/ ... 400.html???

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SimonCelsa
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Re: Trp levers with shimano

Postby SimonCelsa » 11 Jan 2019, 4:29pm

I bought a set of those TRP levers from PlanetX last year and paired them with the Ultegra R650 callipers. No problems.

A friend also bought the 'retro' gum hood ones and paired these with I think some Campagnolo calipers. Can't remember which ones but they were black, reasonable quality and going cheap. He hasn't used the bike much but when I last rode with him he seemed to stop without any great faff.

Hope that helps.

Samuel D
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Location: Paris

Re: Trp levers with shimano

Postby Samuel D » 11 Jan 2019, 5:01pm

webber wrote:Would these work with the calipers https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/ ... 400.html???

Not ideally, because those are Super SLR and your callipers are New Super SLR. The levers don’t pull quite enough cable.

SimonCelsa wrote:I bought a set of those TRP levers from PlanetX last year and paired them with the Ultegra R650 callipers. No problems.

But the BR-R650 callipers are Super SLR, not New Super SLR like the BR-R561. If Brucey is right about the lever’s mechanical advantage, your experience would be expected.

I haven’t shopped for New Super SLR levers, but I had the impression Cane Creek, Dia-Compe, Tektro, etc., all made suitable models. I’ll let someone else make recommendations because I just don’t know.

drossall
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Re: Trp levers with shimano

Postby drossall » 12 Jan 2019, 5:36pm

Blimey this sounds complicated. Are there any good pages explaining what's happened with cable pulls and so on for those of us who weren't paying attention? I understand the basics of MA etc., it's just that, because I don't buy kit often enough, I hadn't noticed that there were 36 different generations of Shimano brakes, each requiring a different lever. I'm still happily using some Tektro levers with Shimano brakes (but yes, probably from before 2008).

Manufacturers' ability to innovate different ways of making kit incompatible with every other bit of kit except that year of the same groupset is beginning to leave me behind.

webber
Posts: 262
Joined: 2 May 2012, 3:48pm

Re: Trp levers with shimano

Postby webber » 12 Jan 2019, 5:51pm

drossall wrote:Blimey this sounds complicated. Are there any good pages explaining what's happened with cable pulls and so on for those of us who weren't paying attention? I understand the basics of MA etc., it's just that, because I don't buy kit often enough, I hadn't noticed that there were 36 different generations of Shimano brakes, each requiring a different lever. I'm still happily using some Tektro levers with Shimano brakes (but yes, probably from before 2008).

Manufacturers' ability to innovate different ways of making kit incompatible with every other bit of kit except that year of the same groupset is beginning to leave me behind.

I know its a bit of a headache ive desided to leave shimano alone now and get new brakes and leavers

Brucey
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Re: Trp levers with shimano

Postby Brucey » 12 Jan 2019, 9:39pm

the shimano compatibility tables will help here. They reckon it is OK to use NSSLR levers with BR-R650 calipers, but that the power will be reduced. [However using NSSLR calipers with older levers is verboten].

I think it is usually slightly worse than that, for the simple reason that if you buy BR-R650 calipers, you are only likely to do that if you need the reach, i.e. the brake blocks are very likely to end up in the bottom of the slots, where the caliper MA is least.

I also note that whilst Tektro mention the caliper MA in some cases (I recall that some brake models were specified as having 'the new cable pull' when they first came out), they don't make two different (basic) aero levers for DP brakes. This suggests to me that they have either quietly revised extant levers (like RL340) or that their original cable pull was a bit longer than shimanos so didn't need changing when NSSLR calipers came along.

BTW my understanding is that SRAM and campag have not recently changed the MA of their levers and calipers; they are the same as they always have been, (for DP calipers anyway).

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

NickJP
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Re: Trp levers with shimano

Postby NickJP » 26 Mar 2020, 6:50am

As a follow-up, I wanted to use a pair of these levers with Shimano BR-R8000 calipers on a racing tandem, as with Conti 5000 32mm tyres, I need a quick release on both caliper and lever to be able to remove a wheel without deflating the tyre. I emailed TRP asking which generation of Shimano calipers the levers were designed to work with, and whether they would work with the BR-R8000 calipers. I received the reply that "The RRL lever is the Shimano 10 speed SLR lever pull ratio", but they also claimed that the pull ratio would work with the calipers I had. As I already had both the levers and calipers, I thought I might as well install them and see how the combination worked. As it turned out, perfectly well. With the brake blocks set about 1.5mm from the rim, the brakes start to bite just before the levers are half way to the bar, the brake feel is good, and with the brakes absolutely full on, there's still about 1.5cm of travel left on the levers.

Brucey
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Re: Trp levers with shimano

Postby Brucey » 26 Mar 2020, 8:57am

NickJP wrote:….. I received the reply that "The RRL lever is the Shimano 10 speed SLR lever pull ratio"....


well that is as clear as mud; the first three shimano 10s groupsets were one lever pull, and all the other 10s groupsets were the NSSLR lever pull.

What calipers did you use with your levers? If they are pre 2008 dual pivots then it sounds like you either have a matched setup with all pre-NSSLR type stuff, or NSSLR levers with pre-NSSLR calipers, which will feel OK at the lever until you actually ride the bike, at which point you may find the brake power inadequate.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

NickJP
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Joined: 24 Sep 2018, 7:11pm

Re: Trp levers with shimano

Postby NickJP » 26 Mar 2020, 8:15pm

Brucey wrote:
NickJP wrote:….. I received the reply that "The RRL lever is the Shimano 10 speed SLR lever pull ratio"....


well that is as clear as mud; the first three shimano 10s groupsets were one lever pull, and all the other 10s groupsets were the NSSLR lever pull.

What calipers did you use with your levers? If they are pre 2008 dual pivots then it sounds like you either have a matched setup with all pre-NSSLR type stuff, or NSSLR levers with pre-NSSLR calipers, which will feel OK at the lever until you actually ride the bike, at which point you may find the brake power inadequate.

As I stated, the calipers are the BR-R8000, current model Ultegra. Shimano refer to them as SLR-EV: https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/technologies/component/details/slr-ev.html. From my reading these calipers require a longer cable pull than the previous Super-SLR and New-Super-SLR calipers, so by using the levers intended for older calipers, I actually have a greater brake power for a given hand pressure at the lever, and from my testing, the longer cable pull required by the calipers isn't leading to the lever bottoming out on the handlebar with max braking.

Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Trp levers with shimano

Postby Brucey » 26 Mar 2020, 11:07pm

sorry, it wasn't clear from what you said if you already had those calipers or some other ones. You spoke of wanting to use certain calipers and then that certain brake levers might work with (unspecified) calipers that you already had.

The SLR-EV designation just refers to a revised caliper design that is meant to work better than the previous versions...yada yada same old same old. The brake cable pull meant for these calipers is NSSLR still and is unchanged, as a glance at this table

https://www.celebrazio.net/bicycling/shimano/2020_compatibility.html#chartbrake

readily confirms.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

NickJP
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Re: Trp levers with shimano

Postby NickJP » 30 Mar 2020, 10:25pm

I asked again of TRP which particular iteration of 10-speed Shimano the levers were designed for, and received the reply that they are optimised for Super SLR. On the basis of that, the combination I've used of SLR-EV calipers and the TRP levers should lead to a mushy brake feel and danger of the levers bottoming on the bar, but I can't detect either of those happening when braking.

The TRP levers can more considerably further than an STI lever before bottoming on the handlebar, as they don't have the secondary blade for gear shifting behind the brake lever blade. I just compared the clearance to the bar before the brakes are applied for a set of Super SLR STI levers and for the the TRP levers - same model handlebar and levers in the same position on the curve down to the drops. The result: 23mm clearance for the STI lever and 41mm for the TRP lever. I haven't tried to compare how much cable is pulled by the two between off and bottomed out.