Wood Burners

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Mick F
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Wood Burners

Postby Mick F » 14 Jan 2019, 8:07am

I hear that they are considering banning them.
I'm happy with that, but if ours is banned, I would like a grant to pay for a gas supply and boiler.
Meanwhile I'll be lighting bonfires to dispose of the damned trees. :lol:
Mick F. Cornwall

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Paulatic
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Re: Wood Burners

Postby Paulatic » 14 Jan 2019, 8:33am

The most polluting log burners will be banned within three years while coal could be outlawed under the Government’s new air pollution strategy.

Michael Gove, the Environment Secretary, has announced a crackdown on emissions from the home as part of a wider push to reduce people's exposure to particulate matter which is considered the most damaging pollutant.

The proposals, outlined in the Government's Clean Air Strategy, include plans to outlaw the sale of the most polluting fuels and to ensure only the cleanest stoves are sold by 2022.


It’ll be ok we can all jump into a car and drive around to stay warm! :D

If they were to stop the import of badly made Chinese stoves as sold in Machine Mart then I’d agree.
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mjr
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Re: Wood Burners

Postby mjr » 14 Jan 2019, 8:49am

Outlaw the sale! That'll do about nothing to deal with old smokies. Any controls on use and misuse?
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al_yrpal
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Re: Wood Burners

Postby al_yrpal » 14 Jan 2019, 9:15am

The problem is in cities. Lots of people are flouting the Clean Air Act and its not being enforced. It wouldn't make any sense to ban woodburners in non urban locations.

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Re: Wood Burners

Postby Bonefishblues » 14 Jan 2019, 9:36am

Not quite - some wood burners are being proposed to be banned. Presumably the older designs: less efficient, non-certified ones. I doubt anyone will have the will to rip out those already installed, either.

My Euro 3 diesel sails on unaffected, I notice...

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fausto copy
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Re: Wood Burners

Postby fausto copy » 14 Jan 2019, 9:39am

They mentioned open fires too.
We use ours occasionally in the winter for warm romantic evenings :lol:
and use up some of the logs from our few trees.
Can they really stop us from using it.
There are still millions of open fires in the country.

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Re: Wood Burners

Postby PDQ Mobile » 14 Jan 2019, 9:42am

We have been here before I think.

It is the fuel that pollutes, not the burners!

Actually the article also states there may be restriction on the sales of wet wood as well.
Burning wet or live wood is inefficient, smoky and polluting, not good in urban places.
Treated or painted timber is also bad in emission terms, nasty chemicals are emitted.

Most types of dry wood are a fantastic and renewable, carbon neutral fuel when good and dry and close to it's supply source.
Dry wood produces far more heat per volume and produces little tar residue or smoke; some, but once going not much.

It should be burned in enclosed burners with a sufficient air supply.
Such burners should have a high mass or heat water to be really efficient. The air supply should be introduced into the volatile gases above the wood not from underneath the grid.

Ps dry wood on open fires is not very polluting but very inefficient (though very romantic!).. Some 70% of the available heat just dissapears up the flue.

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Re: Wood Burners

Postby Flinders » 14 Jan 2019, 9:48am

PDQ Mobile wrote:
Ps dry wood on open fires is not very polluting but very inefficient (though very romantic!).. Some 70% of the available heat just dissapears up the flue.

Depends. Ours is open, but a special convecting design, so we lose very little heat.

pete75
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Re: Wood Burners

Postby pete75 » 14 Jan 2019, 9:53am

Mick F wrote:I hear that they are considering banning them.
I'm happy with that, but if ours is banned, I would like a grant to pay for a gas supply and boiler.
Meanwhile I'll be lighting bonfires to dispose of the damned trees. :lol:


They'll probably try and ban bonfires too. There's certain types of people around who seem very keen on banning things and dorky little Gove seems just that type of person.

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Re: Wood Burners

Postby kwackers » 14 Jan 2019, 9:54am

Pretty much everything I've read suggests that even the best wood burners are pretty bad.

As TC often points out "what would it be like if everyone did it?" - well everyone is, woodburners are seen as cool and fashionable. Be hard pushed to find a middle class home without one in some areas.

I feel we've been here before, I remember the old diesel car thread full of people defending diesels and saying how great they were despite decades of actual evidence say they weren't, turns out the evidence wasn't wrong and that folk believe what they believe...

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Re: Wood Burners

Postby PDQ Mobile » 14 Jan 2019, 9:57am

Flinders wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:
Ps dry wood on open fires is not very polluting but very inefficient (though very romantic!).. Some 70% of the available heat just dissapears up the flue.

Depends. Ours is open, but a special convecting design, so we lose very little heat.

May well be so, I don't have the facts.
High mass is good.

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Re: Wood Burners

Postby PDQ Mobile » 14 Jan 2019, 10:07am

kwackers wrote:Pretty much everything I've read suggests that even the best wood burners are pretty bad.

As TC often points out "what would it be like if everyone did it?" - well everyone is, woodburners are seen as cool and fashionable. ..


It's not a very good urban fuel I would say.
But really dry and burned at high firebox temps with lots of air smoke is very minimal.

For rural areas it ticks a hellova lot of boxes.

I mean wind generated leccy is clean but transmission distances can be high which reduces efficiency. Gas isn't often available, is finite. Oil is expensive and also stinks. Solar has a storage and capacity problem.
As an alternative to say even the highest grades of anthracite, well seasoned wood is wonderful, with all sorts of ticks in environmental benefits.

Tangled Metal
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Re: Wood Burners

Postby Tangled Metal » 14 Jan 2019, 10:25am

All ICE cars are not good that includes petrol and hybrid ones.

As to the wood issue there's more than wet and dry factor here. There's wood type too. There's some wood types that apparently burn just as well when wet. Google the woodsman's poem I think it's called. It's a poem about tree species and their burning characteristics. Truth is most wood burners use whatever they can get cheaply. Whether from a tree in their garden or from a company that dries wood properly and supplies the better burning woods. Then there's those heat logs made out of waste wood compressed into blocks.

But that is all irrelevant because let's face it, woodburners are in the most cases an affectation of the middle classes or aspiring types. It's about interior design. Apart from rural areas a highly efficient gas boiler with high efficiency radiators (with thermostatic valves) are the most efficient, mass market heating method. Woodburners IMHO don't work well with modern central heating systems. So you often don't light your burner or if you do you end up turning your efficient central heating system off.

In our house we have an A+++ boiler with A + rated radiators. We get on and turn the heating on, it's warm in 15 minutes and then you end up with cold radiators most of the night because the house is warm. Very little gas is used. We have gas fires in but they aren't needed. The room would simply get too hot.

Now this isn't the same for rural areas where you're on calor gas or not even got that. I grew up with oil fired boiler. No gas in the area and nobody has calor gas round there back then. My parents put an open fire in but tbh it was needed. Cold house with a not very good heating system.

So IMHO woodburners should be consigned to history in towns and cities. Only if there's no mains gas supply should an area be allowed wood burning of any kind to heat or decorate a house. I've probably got a harsh pov about this topic. However there does need to be a change to our attitudes. I just wish I could afford a decent electric van instead of our ICE mpv.

Pollution is killing us and that's not sustainable IMHO. I have been cycle commuting for 6.5 years now I think. 5 years ago early autumn I started with a persistent cough after commuting by bike. It became more regular. Then at night I occasionally struggled to breathe. A gp visit gave an asthma diagnosis. I had never had any asthma symptoms in my life before. We're talking 40 years without a single symptom. A year after cycle commuting started it all overloaded me and asthma was the result.

So I think I have a valid reason to want woodburners to be scrapped as well as old cars. IMHO we should start to ban euro 5 and below vehicles from town centres in a few years. It shouldn't be just London. I believe Southampton has some of the worst pollution figures. I cycle through Lancaster, a small city, and that's affected my health.

kwackers
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Re: Wood Burners

Postby kwackers » 14 Jan 2019, 10:42am

PDQ Mobile wrote:It's not a very good urban fuel I would say.
But really dry and burned at high firebox temps with lots of air smoke is very minimal.

For rural areas it ticks a hellova lot of boxes.

I mean wind generated leccy is clean but transmission distances can be high which reduces efficiency. Gas isn't often available, is finite. Oil is expensive and also stinks. Solar has a storage and capacity problem.
As an alternative to say even the highest grades of anthracite, well seasoned wood is wonderful, with all sorts of ticks in environmental benefits.

You still have the problem that 'everyone' is doing it.

I see it in the same vein as car use, there are times and places where a car makes the most sense but mostly they don't.
Wood burners are in the same vein, times and places then yes, but for most...

TBH I don't see wood burners as being that much of an issue tbh, provided the flack they get continues.
With continued flack they'll fall out of fashion sooner rather than later, the middle classes will move away and those that have genuine need can carry on.

Now if only cars would fall out of fashion...

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Re: Wood Burners

Postby rjb » 14 Jan 2019, 11:13am

What will they do with the 4 units at Drax power station which burn wood chip to produce 2.6 Gw of electric. The country doesn't have an alternative to replace it. I'd be stocking up my wood pile now if I had one in anticipation of the power cuts. This is enough power to fuel 2 flux capacitors with room to spare. :lol:
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