Jihadi Brides and their Children.

[pwa]

If (as I believe) it was a decision motivated by matters political, not security, it has rather spectacularly backfired on him.

...and a teenage mother has lost a third child.

I think it is slightly off track to call it political. It was in tune with a lot of public sentiment, very understandable sentiment. This girl had chosen to ally herself with an enemy that wants to destroy us, kill us, an enemy that condones rape as policy, that massacres as policy. She decided that was okay and signed up for it. Is it surprising that a large part of the UK public found ti unpalatable that she wanted to come back to the UK, apparently unrepentant, to enjoy the benefits of the NHS and benefits paid for by the rest of us? Javid was thinking about that line of thought and perhaps feeling the same way.

Was he right? No, I think not. But I do understand the sentiments. I feel them myself. The young woman is a disgrace, but she is our disgrace, our problem. And she was a minor when she made her choice. Her baby was as innocent as any baby. It does not sit comfortably with me, but I would have preferred that they be repatriated.

[Bonefishblues]

Mr Javid is positioning himself for a run at the Tory Leadership. Adopting a populist position which (arguably) flies in the face of the law wouldn't harm his chances one little bit.

OTOH adopting a difficult but principled position mightn't do that quite as effectively.

Only Mr Javid can say whether that weighed on his mind, assuming he is aware, of course.

[kwackers]

I think it is slightly off track to call it political. It was in tune with a lot of public sentiment, very understandable sentiment.

Doing something because it's in tune with public sentiment rather than because it's right is the very essence of playing politics.
Not sure why you'd think otherwise.

[ThePinkOne]

Perhaps the real tragedy is that there is a whole bunch of people (not just ex-ISIS) living in refugee camps like this one where infant death from "easily curable" (in the West) diseases is not infrequent. Rather than either side playing politricks with the situation*, maybe we should be asking "how can conditions in any such camp be improved" and " how do we sort things out so people can move out of such camps into decent homes" in a suitable place. Is it really OK to "save" one teenager + child and leave the rest behind?

There's also a wider question of "how do we support fair development so people don't need to become refugees" and for that matter making sure that when we buy stuff like clothes, the wages of the workers are high enough they are not living in similar conditions. Why does the death of a sick child of a Bangladeshi mother working for a pittance in a factory making garments for Western shops not get the same publicity as this case? In the case of the garment worker, one could also argue they are more "innocent" than the ISIS bunch- and that there is an affordable and relatively simple solution.

(*or the family for that matter as they clearly had invited the press into the camp)

But I guess the wider picture- especially for the likes of expoited garment workers- isn't so devisive/indignance-producing as the Begum case so doesn't make such good headlines.

TPO.

[reohn2]

I think it is slightly off track to call it political. It was in tune with a lot of public sentiment, very understandable sentiment.

Doing something because it's in tune with public sentiment rather than because it's right is the very essence of playing politics.
Not sure why you'd think otherwise.

It can be argued that 'public sentiment' would see reuturn to capital punishment,or much nearer to home greater restrictions on where cyclists could ride along with licences,insurance and reg plates,coz any fule kno cyclist are a dangerous nuisance on 'our' roads.......

[pwa]

I think it is slightly off track to call it political. It was in tune with a lot of public sentiment, very understandable sentiment.

Doing something because it's in tune with public sentiment rather than because it's right is the very essence of playing politics.
Not sure why you'd think otherwise.

It can be argued that 'public sentiment' would see reuturn to capital punishment,or much nearer to home greater restrictions on where cyclists could ride along with licences,insurance and reg plates,coz any fule kno cyclist are a dangerous nuisance on 'our' roads.......

But I am sure, like me, you feel disgust at the actions of the girl and feel just a little bit of temptation to say, "no, you can't now decide to come back and enjoy the benefits of a society you chose to go to war with". The difference is that you and I then take a deep breath, think about it a bit more and yield to less impulsive thoughts. Lots of people stick with the initial impulse to shut the door in her face, and given that she has been consorting with people who make the Nazis look okay, and doesn't think she has done wrong, I don't think that line is beyond understanding. As far as I know she supported and still supports a movement dedicated to killing our loved ones. Your loved ones. I would take her back but I understand those who wouldn't.

[kwackers]

But I am sure, like me, you feel disgust at the actions of the girl and feel just a little bit of temptation to say, "no, you can't now decide to come back and enjoy the benefits of a society you chose to go to war with". The difference is that you and I then take a deep breath, think about it a bit more and yield to less impulsive thoughts. Lots of people stick with the initial impulse to shut the door in her face, and given that she has been consorting with people who make the Nazis look okay, and doesn't think she has done wrong, I don't think that line is beyond understanding. As far as I know she supported and still supports a movement dedicated to killing our loved ones. Your loved ones. I would take her back but I understand those who wouldn't.

Yep, but that doesn't mean some folk are playing politics with public sentiment.
My only issue was with anyone claiming otherwise.

[Oldjohnw]

We could, of course, behave better than the people she once associated with.

[Cunobelin]

Interesting how the UK is responsible for the conditions in these camps

Much closer are some of the richest countries in the World

Peehaps if the (alleged) terrorise funding from some of these countries went to humanitarian aid, or they took some responsibility for what was happening locally, there would be no need for the Uk to intervene?

[reohn2]

Doing something because it's in tune with public sentiment rather than because it's right is the very essence of playing politics.
Not sure why you'd think otherwise.

It can be argued that 'public sentiment' would see reuturn to capital punishment,or much nearer to home greater restrictions on where cyclists could ride along with licences,insurance and reg plates,coz any fule kno cyclist are a dangerous nuisance on 'our' roads.......

But I am sure, like me, you feel disgust at the actions of the girl and feel just a little bit of temptation to say, "no, you can't now decide to come back and enjoy the benefits of a society you chose to go to war with". The difference is that you and I then take a deep breath, think about it a bit more and yield to less impulsive thoughts. Lots of people stick with the initial impulse to shut the door in her face, and given that she has been consorting with people who make the Nazis look okay, and doesn't think she has done wrong, I don't think that line is beyond understanding. As far as I know she supported and still supports a movement dedicated to killing our loved ones. Your loved ones. I would take her back but I understand those who wouldn't.

The girl was just that,a girl.
Now she's still a teenager with a broken heart in so many ways.

[reohn2]

We could, of course, behave better than the people she once associated with.

Quite!

[reohn2]

Interesting how the UK is responsible for the conditions in these camps

Much closer are some of the richest countries in the World

Peehaps if the (alleged) terrorise funding from some of these countries went to humanitarian aid, or they took some responsibility for what was happening locally, there would be no need for the Uk to intervene?

And especially as those countries are themselves on the same religious persuasion

[pwa]

It can be argued that 'public sentiment' would see reuturn to capital punishment,or much nearer to home greater restrictions on where cyclists could ride along with licences,insurance and reg plates,coz any fule kno cyclist are a dangerous nuisance on 'our' roads.......

But I am sure, like me, you feel disgust at the actions of the girl and feel just a little bit of temptation to say, "no, you can't now decide to come back and enjoy the benefits of a society you chose to go to war with". The difference is that you and I then take a deep breath, think about it a bit more and yield to less impulsive thoughts. Lots of people stick with the initial impulse to shut the door in her face, and given that she has been consorting with people who make the Nazis look okay, and doesn't think she has done wrong, I don't think that line is beyond understanding. As far as I know she supported and still supports a movement dedicated to killing our loved ones. Your loved ones. I would take her back but I understand those who wouldn't.

The girl was just that,a girl.
Now she's still a teenager with a broken heart in so many ways.

I agree. But I understand people who don't. People who don't think that a 15 year old who sided with evil and wants to return as an unrepentant 19 year old should be forgiven. Do we forgive and forget automatically because the offender is under 18? Think of other child criminals. I can very much understand people not welcoming back a 19 year old who thinks the killing of youngsters in the Manchester Arena bombing was okay. I do see the other point of view.

[Oldjohnw]

pwa wrote

I agree. But I understand people who don't. People who don't think that a 15 year old who sided with evil and wants to return as an unrepentant 19 year old should be forgiven. Do we forgive and forget automatically because the offender is under 18? Think of other child criminals. I can very much understand people not welcoming back a 19 year old who thinks the killing of youngsters in the Manchester Arena bombing was okay. I do see the other point of view.

I don't think many would suggest we forgive and forget. I don't think forgiveness comes into it. If there has been criminal activity, make a case. Educate, imprison or whatever. But don't leave a British teenager, who was a child when she left the UK, to rot. That doesn't make you tough: it shows you as weak.

[pwa]

pwa wrote

I agree. But I understand people who don't. People who don't think that a 15 year old who sided with evil and wants to return as an unrepentant 19 year old should be forgiven. Do we forgive and forget automatically because the offender is under 18? Think of other child criminals. I can very much understand people not welcoming back a 19 year old who thinks the killing of youngsters in the Manchester Arena bombing was okay. I do see the other point of view.

I don't think many would suggest we forgive and forget. I don't think forgiveness comes into it. If there has been criminal activity, make a case. Educate, imprison or whatever. But don't leave a British teenager, who was a child when she left the UK, to rot. That doesn't make you tough: it shows you as weak.

Again, I tend to agree, but she isn't a kid now and she doesn't sound like she has regrets, so if we admit her back we are admitting an adult who thinks the Manchester bombing was an okay thing. I understand people who think it right and proper that she be excluded. That is not the conclusion I come to, but I understand it.