Jihadi Brides and their Children.

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reohn2
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Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Post by reohn2 »

Oldjohnw wrote:pwa wrote

I agree. But I understand people who don't. People who don't think that a 15 year old who sided with evil and wants to return as an unrepentant 19 year old should be forgiven. Do we forgive and forget automatically because the offender is under 18? Think of other child criminals. I can very much understand people not welcoming back a 19 year old who thinks the killing of youngsters in the Manchester Arena bombing was okay. I do see the other point of view.


I don't think many would suggest we forgive and forget. I don't think forgiveness comes into it. If there has been criminal activity, make a case. Educate, imprison or whatever. But don't leave a British teenager, who was a child when she left the UK, to rot. That doesn't make you tough: it shows you as weak.

My thoughts exactly.
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Oldjohnw
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Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Post by Oldjohnw »

pwa wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:pwa wrote

I agree. But I understand people who don't. People who don't think that a 15 year old who sided with evil and wants to return as an unrepentant 19 year old should be forgiven. Do we forgive and forget automatically because the offender is under 18? Think of other child criminals. I can very much understand people not welcoming back a 19 year old who thinks the killing of youngsters in the Manchester Arena bombing was okay. I do see the other point of view.


I don't think many would suggest we forgive and forget. I don't think forgiveness comes into it. If there has been criminal activity, make a case. Educate, imprison or whatever. But don't leave a British teenager, who was a child when she left the UK, to rot. That doesn't make you tough: it shows you as weak.

Again, I tend to agree, but she isn't a kid now and she doesn't sound like she has regrets, so if we admit her back we are admitting an adult who thinks the Manchester bombing was an okay thing. I understand people who think it right and proper that she be excluded. That is not the conclusion I come to, but I understand it.


If she has committed a crime, lock her up. For as long as it takes.
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Cunobelin
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Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Post by Cunobelin »

All this forgets another aspect... the expectation that we would risk lives to collect her
mercalia
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Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Post by mercalia »

This is how Sajid Javid will be remembered?
The man  who failed to protect a UK citizen ( the baby)
The man who failed to protect a UK citizen ( the baby)

Seems like the Daily Mail managed to get in and out safely?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/mar/09/sajid-javid-moral-coward-death-begum-baby

a damning article?

“This was an abject decision by a home secretary apparently so intent on furthering his leadership ambitions that he has lost sight of sovereignty, treating the UK as a banana republic incapable of regulating its own citizens,” said Lord Macdonald, who was director of public prosecutions of England and Wales between 2003 and 2008.

“No dignified self-governing state should abandon responsibility for its own citizens in this way, trying to dump them on to poorer countries with failed security arrangements. Mr Javid’s behaviour is a recipe for refugee chaos and moral cowardice of the worst sort,” he said.
Last edited by mercalia on 10 Mar 2019, 3:09am, edited 4 times in total.
thelawnet
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Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Post by thelawnet »

There are lots of British children who cannot come to the UK for reasons connected to British immigration rules. There's quite a good article in The Guardian here about one such scenario:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... hilippines

My son could not come to the UK when he was first born as his mother needed to get a British visa, which was not initially forthcoming.

Under the current rules, though I am British, I would need a salary of £22,400 to bring my foreign-born child to the UK, a level considerably above the minimum wage. As well as good English abilities by the mother.

I was reading the comments on the BBC Indonesian service and the Indonesian commenters seem to perceive that Shamima Begum is Bangladeshi, not withstanding that she was born in the UK. Her father is apparently living in rural Bangladesh, so you can see the point of view to a significant extent. Ms. Begum's child was born in Syria to a Dutch father, but had British citizenship.

My parents, grandparents, etc. are all UK-born but I happened to be born outside the UK, though I have no ties to the country of my birth or other citizenship than British. When my son was born, however, he wasn't entitled to British citizenship as I had the wrong kind of British citizenship (i.e. Shamima Begum is effectively more British than me in that my child was not British but hers was).

Clearly this comes down to rules - if you don't follow them you can find yourself deported after 40 years, or not being allowed to bring your child to the UK.

In terms of Shamima's baby, he would have had the same option, given his Dutch father, that many thousands of other British babies face - get his British passport and leave the country with his father.

I find it a little unreasonable to make post hoc ergo propter hoc complaints that the baby was not allowed to come to the UK, when nobody is seriously proposing making changes to the immigration rules to allow other British babies similar immigration rights: i.e. in practical terms where a British baby is born to a non-British mother, this would mean the right for the non-British mother to enter the UK without encumberance.
landsurfer
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Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Post by landsurfer »

My son was born in a foreign country where i and his mother where working for the UK government.
In accordance with the immigration rules in place at the time his birth was registered at the British Consul within 7 days of his birth and he has never had any citizenship issues ... he's 36 now ...
We followed the rules, we knew the rules because we asked ....
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Cunobelin
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Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Post by Cunobelin »

mercalia wrote:This is how Sajid Javid will be remembered?
Begum.JPG
Seems like the Daily Mail managed to get in and out safely?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/mar/09/sajid-javid-moral-coward-death-begum-baby

a damning article?

“This was an abject decision by a home secretary apparently so intent on furthering his leadership ambitions that he has lost sight of sovereignty, treating the UK as a banana republic incapable of regulating its own citizens,” said Lord Macdonald, who was director of public prosecutions of England and Wales between 2003 and 2008.

“No dignified self-governing state should abandon responsibility for its own citizens in this way, trying to dump them on to poorer countries with failed security arrangements. Mr Javid’s behaviour is a recipe for refugee chaos and moral cowardice of the worst sort,” he said.



One-sided propaganda, it is easy to find a range of articles across the spectrum to support alternative views from moderate to extreme.

.. and I am not sure either Pakistan or Holland would be happy as "poorer countries with failed security arrangements."
mercalia
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Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Post by mercalia »

Cunobelin wrote:
mercalia wrote:This is how Sajid Javid will be remembered?
Begum.JPG
Seems like the Daily Mail managed to get in and out safely?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/mar/09/sajid-javid-moral-coward-death-begum-baby

a damning article?

“This was an abject decision by a home secretary apparently so intent on furthering his leadership ambitions that he has lost sight of sovereignty, treating the UK as a banana republic incapable of regulating its own citizens,” said Lord Macdonald, who was director of public prosecutions of England and Wales between 2003 and 2008.

“No dignified self-governing state should abandon responsibility for its own citizens in this way, trying to dump them on to poorer countries with failed security arrangements. Mr Javid’s behaviour is a recipe for refugee chaos and moral cowardice of the worst sort,” he said.



One-sided propaganda, it is easy to find a range of articles across the spectrum to support alternative views from moderate to extreme.

.. and I am not sure either Pakistan or Holland would be happy as "poorer countries with failed security arrangements."


Bangladesh the country in question not Holland? Pakistan is the country behind all the trouble with the Taliban? Has failed to curb them?
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Cunobelin
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Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Post by Cunobelin »

mercalia wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
mercalia wrote:This is how Sajid Javid will be remembered?
Begum.JPG
Seems like the Daily Mail managed to get in and out safely?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/mar/09/sajid-javid-moral-coward-death-begum-baby

a damning article?

“This was an abject decision by a home secretary apparently so intent on furthering his leadership ambitions that he has lost sight of sovereignty, treating the UK as a banana republic incapable of regulating its own citizens,” said Lord Macdonald, who was director of public prosecutions of England and Wales between 2003 and 2008.

“No dignified self-governing state should abandon responsibility for its own citizens in this way, trying to dump them on to poorer countries with failed security arrangements. Mr Javid’s behaviour is a recipe for refugee chaos and moral cowardice of the worst sort,” he said.



One-sided propaganda, it is easy to find a range of articles across the spectrum to support alternative views from moderate to extreme.

.. and I am not sure either Pakistan or Holland would be happy as "poorer countries with failed security arrangements."


Bangladesh the country in question, not Holland? Pakistan is the country behind all the trouble with the Taliban? Has failed to curb them?


The child has two parents, both have a nationality...... why is only one being questioned, pilloried and blamed?

Where have the Dutch stood on the child of one of its nationals?

Even if the Dutch fail to recognise the marriage, the child is still entitled. Unless there are allegations that he is NOT the biological father, as the child of an unmarried national the baby has an equal right to Dutch citizenship.
landsurfer
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Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Post by landsurfer »

Cunobelin wrote:The child has two parents, both have a nationality...... why is only one being questioned, pilloried and blamed?


Your right ... as terrorists they should both be questioned, pilloried and blamed? How unfair.
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reohn2
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Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Post by reohn2 »

landsurfer wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:The child has two parents, both have a nationality...... why is only one being questioned, pilloried and blamed?


Your right ... as terrorists they should both be questioned, pilloried and blamed? How unfair.

But due to the father being Dutch it's upto his country to question him about his terrorist links.
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Cunobelin
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Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Post by Cunobelin »

reohn2 wrote:
landsurfer wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:The child has two parents, both have a nationality...... why is only one being questioned, pilloried and blamed?


Your right ... as terrorists they should both be questioned, pilloried and blamed? How unfair.

But due to the father being Dutch it's upto his country to question him about his terrorist links.



I was referring to the current discussion over the responsibility for the child's welfare, which is separate to the matter of the parent's actions.
reohn2
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Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Post by reohn2 »

Cunobelin wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
landsurfer wrote:
Your right ... as terrorists they should both be questioned, pilloried and blamed? How unfair.

But due to the father being Dutch it's upto his country to question him about his terrorist links.



I was referring to the current discussion over the responsibility for the child's welfare, which is separate to the matter of the parent's actions.

I was responding to Lanspdsurfer's point about both parents being blaimed,but I take your point.
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mercalia
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Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Post by mercalia »

so the lawyer for Shamima Begum breaks his silence and shoots a broadside at the police, the local council, the govt and in particular Sajid Javid

The lawyer representing Shamima Begum's family has written to the home secretary accusing UK authorities of failing to protect the east London girl from being "groomed" by Islamic State.

The letter accuses police and her local council of failing to safeguard the teenager, who left for Syria in 2015.


Home Secretary Sajid Javid's decision to revoke Begum's citizenship, Mr Akunjee contends that the government has "neglected to consider the failings of the UK government, which led to Ms Begum becoming a child victim of trafficking".

Addressing the Conservative leadership contender, he wrote: "Your act represents the most profoundly egregious, capricious and politically-driven abuse of power."

"It was a unilateral response... deployed as an artifice or device to further your own personal political objective of being prime minister. Ms Begum was a pawn to your vanity."


I hope Sajid Javid gets his come-uppance

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48444604
Bonefishblues
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Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Post by Bonefishblues »

I heard him on R4 this morning. I think the two key points are demonstrably true.
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