landsurfer wrote:Because Begum was born here does not mean she has the right to remain.
I see.
I was born in England of naturalised British parents. There is a difference between me and Ms Begum - I am not under suspicion of any criminal offence, AFAIK. But still - if it all goes pear-shaped - where would you like me to be 'sent back' to?
Hint: "Auschwitz" is not an acceptable answer....
If I were in your position and thought there might be any doubt in the future I would get a UK passport ASAP, just to be on the safe(r) side. But I think you and I would both conclude that on the balance of the evidence the young woman is ours to deal with, nobody else's.
I've held UK passports since I was 16 (before then, I was on my parents' {British} passports). But I accept, there are plenty of people in UK who don't have a passport: British or otherwise. Yes some of them may be in for problems....
I agree with those who have said, if Ms Begum is suspected of an offence, she should face trial here. And no nonsense about revoking her British nationality...
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity. Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments... --- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
Hello again, It was well posted in the media that HMG's position was that people who took the route that Begum took would be tearing up their right s to be domicile in the UK, so she burned her own bridge! I feel sorry for folk in countries where their quietude is ruined by power seekers & war mongers, she does not fall into that category. MM
I was born in England of naturalised British parents. There is a difference between me and Ms Begum - I am not under suspicion of any criminal offence, AFAIK. But still - if it all goes pear-shaped - where would you like me to be 'sent back' to?
Hint: "Auschwitz" is not an acceptable answer....
If I were in your position and thought there might be any doubt in the future I would get a UK passport ASAP, just to be on the safe(r) side. But I think you and I would both conclude that on the balance of the evidence the young woman is ours to deal with, nobody else's.
I've held UK passports since I was 16 (before then, I was on my parents' {British} passports). But I accept, there are plenty of people in UK who don't have a passport: British or otherwise. Yes some of them may be in for problems....
I agree with those who have said, if Ms Begum is suspected of an offence, she should face trial here. And no nonsense about revoking her British nationality...
Broadly I agree, but I do understand the sentiment behind wanting her UK identity to be denied. She effectively renounced it herself and joined a movement that made war on us, then when it went wrong for her she wants us to take her back and forget the horrors that she signed up to. But yes, reluctantly I think she is our mess to deal with.
merseymouth wrote:Hello again, It was well posted in the media that HMG's position was that people who took the route that Begum took would be tearing up their right s to be domicile in the UK, so she burned her own bridge! I feel sorry for folk in countries where their quietude is ruined by power seekers & war mongers, she does not fall into that category. MM
wasnt she a minor when she did so? so that position hardly applies?
merseymouth wrote:Hello again, It was well posted in the media that HMG's position was that people who took the route that Begum took would be tearing up their right s to be domicile in the UK, so she burned her own bridge! I feel sorry for folk in countries where their quietude is ruined by power seekers & war mongers, she does not fall into that category. MM
wasnt she a minor when she did so? so that position hardly applies?
Was she above the age of Legal Responsibility ???
“Quiet, calm deliberation disentangles every knot.”
Be more Mike.
The road goes on forever.
pwa wrote: I'd gladly see the adults rot, but we should take responsibility for our own criminals and make space in our own prisons for them.
I wonder if those with this viewpoint feel the same about the British men and women who went to fight fascism in the Spanish Civil War. Were they heroes or villains?
pwa wrote: I'd gladly see the adults rot, but we should take responsibility for our own criminals and make space in our own prisons for them.
I wonder if those with this viewpoint feel the same about the British men and women who went to fight fascism in the Spanish Civil War. Were they heroes or villains?
Don't you see a difference between fighting against Fascism and fighting for ISIS? I do. The nature of the organisation you join makes a difference. I knew a man who went to Spain to fight the Fascists and he would have been appalled by your comment.
Hello again, Can someone tell me how old she was when she went through a marriage ceremony? If she was under 18 years of age she would have needed parental consent in this country, but she chose to undergo such a ceremony in a country where at her age she would have been thought to have waited too long already! She thought herself an adult, now she wishes that we would ignore her previous behaviour because she was "Too young to know better", me thinks she wants her cake and H'Penny! Very sad case, but of her own making. MM
merseymouth wrote:Hello again, It was well posted in the media that HMG's position was that people who took the route that Begum took would be tearing up their right s to be domicile in the UK, so she burned her own bridge! I feel sorry for folk in countries where their quietude is ruined by power seekers & war mongers, she does not fall into that category. MM
wasnt she a minor when she did so? so that position hardly applies?
pwa wrote:Don't you see a difference between fighting against Fascism and fighting for ISIS?
Interesting response, you’ve compared fighting for and fighting against. I can see how that fits in with your opinion, but it’s a slanted POV. History as they say is written by the victors. My late FiL fought Franco, he was appalled by all of it, but I think mostly by the vilification that came from most of the British population.
pwa wrote:Don't you see a difference between fighting against Fascism and fighting for ISIS?
Interesting response, you’ve compared fighting for and fighting against. I can see how that fits in with your opinion, but it’s a slanted POV. History as they say is written by the victors. My late FiL fought Franco, he was appalled by all of it, but I think mostly by the vilification that came from most of the British population.
I see ISIS as the worst of the worst, alongside the Nazis as they massacred whole villages during their rampage in Eastern Europe. You seem reluctant to distinguish between ISIS / the SS during WW2 and, say, the anti-Fascists in Spain or more recently those went to fight with the Kurds against ISIS. You see them as all the same?
I know of course that all armies in wars commit war crimes, but some armies are directed to do so as a matter of policy and some have rogue elements that commit crimes against policy. The UK people who went to join ISIS must have heard of their atrocities but were not put off by that. By going there they endorsed rape and murder of civilians as a policy. Or do you feel they didn't know about that?
pwa wrote:I know of course that all armies in wars commit war crimes, but some armies are directed to do so as a matter of policy and some have rogue elements that commit crimes against policy. The UK people who went to join ISIS must have heard of their atrocities but were not put off by that. By going there they endorsed rape and murder of civilians as a policy. Or do you feel they didn't know about that?
Just to point out that hearing about something doesn't mean believing it.
No shortage of folk who think "the man" is telling them porkies and the media is covering up blah blah. Before you know it they listen to alternative news sources particularly ones that support their beliefs (we've just had 4 years of the same). So rape and murder? Nah, just western propaganda.
pwa wrote:I know of course that all armies in wars commit war crimes, but some armies are directed to do so as a matter of policy and some have rogue elements that commit crimes against policy. The UK people who went to join ISIS must have heard of their atrocities but were not put off by that. By going there they endorsed rape and murder of civilians as a policy. Or do you feel they didn't know about that?
Just to point out that hearing about something doesn't mean believing it.
No shortage of folk who think "the man" is telling them porkies and the media is covering up blah blah. Before you know it they listen to alternative news sources particularly ones that support their beliefs (we've just had 4 years of the same). So rape and murder? Nah, just western propaganda.
I wonder if that is the defence they wish to use. Ignorance, I suppose.
pwa wrote:I wonder if that is the defence they wish to use. Ignorance, I suppose.
Except it's not ignorance. It's not much different to flat earth, folk look for alternative "facts" and those facts are conveyed very convincingly - probably more so than the truth because when you remove the need to tell the truth you can bolster your lies with almost anything that suits.
Are ISIS evil? Almost certainly, particularly at the top because they're playing a game who's rules they've created. Their troops on the ground? Much less so I reckon, there's a lot of brainwashing and disinformation being used to get them on board.
