Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

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Cugel
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby Cugel » 26 Feb 2019, 3:41pm

pwa wrote:
Cugel wrote:
pwa wrote:I believe top level male tennis players hit the ball harder and faster than their female counterparts. I believe that top level male 100 metre sprinters cover that distance quicker than their female counterparts. Or is it just my Victorian prejudice making me imagine these things? Do you really think, Cugel, that women racing against men would suddenly up their game and become as fast as the men? Or is it that you know the men would still be faster, but it wouldn't matter because the "best person" would win. The "best person" being a man, every time? Can you really mean that?


I mean that it would be best to find out the "truth" of the matter by allowing the contests to occur rather than by employing the self-fulfilling prophecy and "reason" - that women are weaker - for never actually testing the question via reality.

When a sporting event sees a new record, there is often a spurt of attempts, many successful, to match and exceed that record. This occurs not just via physical improvements but via psychological improvements. There is a large body of evidence that suggests it is largely psychology that determines the results of elite sporting events, with physicality a necessary but not sufficient condition for winning. There is a possibility that some women will beat some men via psychological prowess rather than physical prowess - although the latter is a possibility too.

Why prevent mixed gender contests? Do you imagine the women competing will be somehow cowed or reduced if they don't always come first? Winning is but one factor driving those competing in sporting events. If winning were the only factor, the number of competitors would reduce to very few indeed. I competed in many many road races (and other sporting events) yet never got a first. I enjoyed myself immensely, as well as obtaining several other associated benefits from participating in the events.

Cugel, always amazed at the power and tenacity of deeply-embedded cultural assumptions.

Is it your belief that in spite of the current difference in times for men's and women's 100m sprints, the top women would improve to be on a par with the top men if they raced together? I can't prove that wrong, and I would love it if it were true and we did it, but it is an extraordinary assertion that I currently find incredible.

And I don't think the top women would be content with always finishing races behind a bunch of men. Amateurs just out for a nice run would be happy with that, but not top athletes.


I don't know if a woman would eventually equal or exceed the time of a man for a 100M sprint. Why have "a belief" about such a thing when it could be better discovered by having mixed gender 100M sprints as the norm, in reality.

Would it matter if, to begin with, blokes came first in 99 out of 100 such events? Perhaps the womenfolk would, in having those winning men as their benchmark, eventually reach or even surpass that standard? The only way to know is to actually make the comparison by racing mixed genders in reality.

Forming theories about what is or isn't possible just gives you a theory. Consider the next step of the scientific method. It involves the concept "empiricism". Perform the experiment of mixed gender races, for 10 years, to see what eventuates.

As to women being dissatisfied with not winning against men - well. that's the current situation all the time, isn't it, since you won't allow them
to race against men. Perhaps the dissatisfaction of not beating all the blokes in a mixed gender race would be the very spur to increase womens' performance until they could?

Cugel

pete75
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby pete75 » 26 Feb 2019, 4:19pm

Tangled Metal wrote:One old TT record can quite reasonably be considered as outlier. If you want to prove your point then you really need to show that there's a significant level of equality in performance between the sexes across a wide range of sports. I doubt you'll find that equality in results. You still probably find outliers and some types of events where there is a smaller gap. Ultra distance events are one such category. Where being mentally tough plays more into the result than pure power / physical prowess.

I've played a minority team sport in my local club with and against a woman who had the physique of a highly toned, male athlete. Muscles on muscles with ability too. She represented UK female team (well in the squad at least). Definitely an outlier in physical terms. She wasn't the best player in the club team and even I could compete with her if motivated.


The post I replied to was just asking for one example. I provided it.

pete75
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby pete75 » 26 Feb 2019, 4:21pm

Cugel wrote:I don't know if a woman would eventually equal or exceed the time of a man for a 100M sprint. Why have "a belief" about such a thing when it could be better discovered by having mixed gender 100M sprints as the norm, in reality.

Would it matter if, to begin with, blokes came first in 99 out of 100 such events? Perhaps the womenfolk would, in having those winning men as their benchmark, eventually reach or even surpass that standard? The only way to know is to actually make the comparison by racing mixed genders in reality.

Forming theories about what is or isn't possible just gives you a theory. Consider the next step of the scientific method. It involves the concept "empiricism". Perform the experiment of mixed gender races, for 10 years, to see what eventuates.

As to women being dissatisfied with not winning against men - well. that's the current situation all the time, isn't it, since you won't allow them
to race against men. Perhaps the dissatisfaction of not beating all the blokes in a mixed gender race would be the very spur to increase womens' performance until they could?

Cugel

Hmm I doubt any top level female sports people would accept this. Almost all are professional and rewards depend on winning or at least being highly placed. What you propose would take much of their income away.

pwa
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby pwa » 26 Feb 2019, 5:02pm

Cugel's solution would eliminate female golds from track & field events, swimming and cycling. I suggest that is no solution. The gender differentiation in some sports is there to allow females to be competitive.

kwackers
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby kwackers » 26 Feb 2019, 5:12pm

pwa wrote:Cugel's solution would eliminate female golds from track & field events, swimming and cycling. I suggest that is no solution. The gender differentiation in some sports is there to allow females to be competitive.

If only evolution had given it some thought all this could have been avoided.

I guess we could go by build. Mr Bolt weighs 94kg, looking round town there are hundreds of women that look to weigh that.

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Cugel
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby Cugel » 26 Feb 2019, 6:37pm

pwa wrote:Cugel's solution would eliminate female golds from track & field events, swimming and cycling. I suggest that is no solution. The gender differentiation in some sports is there to allow females to be competitive.

There's nothing to stop the prize-givers or the gong-awarders doing a virtual separation within a single race to give 1st woman, 1st man, 1st under 18, 1st over 50, etcetera. In fact this happens in hundreds of amateur races of all kinds.

Sometimes the !st woman or 1st over 50 is also 1st in the whole race. Sometimes not.

Why concentrate your attention on so-called professional sport? That isn't really sport but a form of circus, in which the athletes are more like performing animals than sports folk. They do tricks and become celebs.

Nevertheless, such professional events could also have the 1st woman, 1st man thing. By all means have a 1st overall .... but give the womenfolk a chance to obtain that glittering prize rather than pretending your know it cannot possibly happen.

Imagine Le Tour in which there are mixed gender teams. Exciting events might occur that cannot occur now. A race within a race within a race!

Cugel

kwackers
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby kwackers » 26 Feb 2019, 7:00pm

Cugel wrote:There's nothing to stop the prize-givers or the gong-awarders doing a virtual separation within a single race to give 1st woman, 1st man, 1st under 18, 1st over 50, etcetera. In fact this happens in hundreds of amateur races of all kinds.

Sometimes the !st woman or 1st over 50 is also 1st in the whole race. Sometimes not.

Why concentrate your attention on so-called professional sport? That isn't really sport but a form of circus, in which the athletes are more like performing animals than sports folk. They do tricks and become celebs.

Nevertheless, such professional events could also have the 1st woman, 1st man thing. By all means have a 1st overall .... but give the womenfolk a chance to obtain that glittering prize rather than pretending your know it cannot possibly happen.

Imagine Le Tour in which there are mixed gender teams. Exciting events might occur that cannot occur now. A race within a race within a race!

Cugel

I feel there's a bit of conflict in your post.

On the one hand you're pointing out that amateur races already mix sex and on the other you're saying why bother with pro...
So it sounds to me like we're already there and there's no need to do anything else!

I must admit in my experience of even amateur (running) events I'm unaware of any that have been won by a woman (ultra's excepted since I know nothing about them).
I'm sure that's not the point though, they *could* win in theory. Trouble with theories is they remain that way until proven or disproved and so far this particular theory has a fairly low 'sigma' value.

Another problem is if they don't win the amateur events they won't get placed for the pro ones since some of the amateur events are used by UK Athletics to decide who gets to run for the UK.
If you don't pick out separate men and women's teams then you'd have to either accept that there are no women (at least for now) or preferentially pick slower women over faster men...

Ultimately though your team often fields only the fastest man and the fastest woman over the distance. So in a 100m 'mixed' race where you only field your fastest runner then it's going to be a man every time.
Running tracks have a very limited number of lines.

In mass participation events like marathons then sure you could do what you suggest, but you still have to basically pick out an even number of the fastest women and the fastest men otherwise if you simply picked the 20 fastest chances are they be pretty much all male...

pwa
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby pwa » 26 Feb 2019, 7:27pm

Off Topic, but my solution for the lack of a proper female Tour de France would be to run a women's stage each day on the same course as the men's event, but timed to finish maybe an hour before. And if some of the backmarkers get passed by the leaders of the men's race, no problem.

pete75
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby pete75 » 26 Feb 2019, 7:28pm

Cugel wrote:
pwa wrote:Cugel's solution would eliminate female golds from track & field events, swimming and cycling. I suggest that is no solution. The gender differentiation in some sports is there to allow females to be competitive.

There's nothing to stop the prize-givers or the gong-awarders doing a virtual separation within a single race to give 1st woman, 1st man, 1st under 18, 1st over 50, etcetera. In fact this happens in hundreds of amateur races of all kinds.



All that means is women are competing against women for the woman's prize. There are few, if any , people over 50 or under 18 competing in top level professional sport.
If a sporting event is designed for all to compete on equal terms then for that to happen it would be necessary to have one set of prizes - the winner and down to whatever place the organisers want to award money be that third or tenth.

landsurfer
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby landsurfer » 26 Feb 2019, 7:37pm

pwa wrote:Off Topic, but my solution for the lack of a proper female Tour de France would be to run a women's stage each day on the same course as the men's event, but timed to finish maybe an hour before. And if some of the backmarkers get passed by the leaders of the men's race, no problem.


+1 Yet again .... but who would object among the sponsors .... ? :roll:
The Road Goes On Forever

Ben@Forest
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby Ben@Forest » 27 Feb 2019, 6:43am

pwa wrote:Off Topic, but my solution for the lack of a proper female Tour de France would be to run a women's stage each day on the same course as the men's event, but timed to finish maybe an hour before. And if some of the backmarkers get passed by the leaders of the men's race, no problem.


The problem with that is what it those three leading blokes who've been slogging up the mountain against each other for the last twenty minutes go into the last 500 metres with the women's peloton (or a least significant groups of women). It may affect the outcome of the race. It could affect the outcome even if both groups of leading men and women approach the finish at the same time.

And it may only be psychological but think of the image of the sweating but exultant winning man flanked by knackered or relieved looking woman ready to drop off the bike (because they are not climbers not because they are women). I can't see it being a good look for female sport.

merseymouth
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby merseymouth » 27 Feb 2019, 8:24am

Hi all, Why o why do folk keep saying the the "Battle of the Sexes" tennis match was any sort of proof regarding performance variation between men & w men in sport!
Billy Jean King was certainly in good competative shape for the match, no question. But Bobby Riggs was so over the hill that it was a complete waste of time, proved nothing.
Can't see the top women players wanting to do "Equal Work for Equal Pay", the 3 sets as against 5 sets shows that.
Nor can I see any of the world ranked Top 10 Women wanting to slug it out with a world ranked Top 10 Male players?
When I was an active runner organizers would offer prizes to the first 10 male runners and also the first 10 female runners, sounds fair.
Except there would be 900 men trying for a pot, but often less than 100 females? Not parity to my eyes.
I never had a problem should a female beat me in a race, good on you girl. In a Fell race at Keswick I was in the first 5% at the top of Lattrigg, well ahead of Pauline Haworth, great lady, that was flat and uphill. But the reverse route put me in my place!
My technique on the steep downhill section sealed my fate, the lass romped past me.
I did stay in the top30%, but I was obliterated by her real hillcraft.
Proved nothing except I was rubbish at running downhill!
We should just compete for fun, sod professional "Sport". Enjoy it while we can. TTFN MM

landsurfer
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby landsurfer » 27 Feb 2019, 12:51pm

Cycling Weekly results page this week.
Time Trial results.
In non of the events listed was the Fastest Woman in the top 10...But she was the Fastest Woman !!
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Cugel
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby Cugel » 28 Feb 2019, 8:41am

pete75 wrote:
Cugel wrote:
pwa wrote:Cugel's solution would eliminate female golds from track & field events, swimming and cycling. I suggest that is no solution. The gender differentiation in some sports is there to allow females to be competitive.

There's nothing to stop the prize-givers or the gong-awarders doing a virtual separation within a single race to give 1st woman, 1st man, 1st under 18, 1st over 50, etcetera. In fact this happens in hundreds of amateur races of all kinds.



All that means is women are competing against women for the woman's prize. There are few, if any , people over 50 or under 18 competing in top level professional sport.
If a sporting event is designed for all to compete on equal terms then for that to happen it would be necessary to have one set of prizes - the winner and down to whatever place the organisers want to award money be that third or tenth.


No, the women are also now competing against the men in the race they are in. Perhaps one will win the overall race, even among "the professionals".
Why not try it and find out?

What is the advantage to the men gained by banning women in their race? I can think of only one: the loss of ego should a woman win. Of course, this is only an advantage to misogynists; the weak of ego; the strange blokes who are afrit of ladies. :-)

Cugel

pwa
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby pwa » 28 Feb 2019, 8:58am

Cugel wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Cugel wrote:There's nothing to stop the prize-givers or the gong-awarders doing a virtual separation within a single race to give 1st woman, 1st man, 1st under 18, 1st over 50, etcetera. In fact this happens in hundreds of amateur races of all kinds.




What is the advantage to the men gained by banning women in their race? I can think of only one: the loss of ego should a woman win. Of course, this is only an advantage to misogynists; the weak of ego; the strange blokes who are afrit of ladies. :-)

Cugel

In men versus women in all track and field events, all mainstream road and track cycling events, all swimming events, women would not even qualify for the finals. Nature has put them in a separate category, not men running scared of the competition. Look at the records for different sports if you don't believe it. Your solution would end up with an all-male field in lots of sports. Are you a misogynist? :lol: