Normandy hubs; maillard in many guises....

[Brucey]

the 50 81 marking means it was manufactured in week 50 of 1981. I do have some experience of using these hubs as a fixed gear hub and there are several issues;
1) the chainline isn't 'correct'
2) there is no provision for a lockring on many hubs
3) the axle isn't really strong enough.

Maillard did make a special DF hub BITD but it really only addressed 2). By 'correct' chainline I mean as per proper track hubs, so about 42mm For many years I used a Normandy hub with fixed gear and this is what I did. To get the 'correct' chain line on an undished wheel, I added a spacer ~1.5-2.0mm thickness behind the sprocket. Because I had no lockring, and the bike occasionally had gears or a freewheel, two brakes were fitted. Whilst it occurred to me that the sprocket could better secured using adhesive and that fitment of a BB lockring would at least give the correct appearance, I did neither; the sprocket didn't unscrew itself, and I sometimes appreciated having an additional brake.
The axle was a bit trickier. If converting a QR hub, this will have 10x1mm axle threading which means that you can fit a shimano solid axle, which is a little bit stronger than 3/8". Usually, it is possible to add a length of 11mm OD, 0.5mm wall steel tube, as an axle sleeve, securing it with epoxy resin. 0.5mm wall thickness doesn't sound like much, but strength and stiffness both go with the cube of the diameter, so any steel sleeve will be an improvement. Because the threads are invariably rolled, the central portion of a 10 x 1 mm threaded axle might only be ~9.5 mm diameter, in which case there may be room inside the 11mm tube for a few turns of stiffness-enhancing steel shim. along with the epoxy resin.
It is always possible to convert these hubs to cartridge bearings too, if you use a little cunning.

[JohnW]

Good to see your mane on the forum Brucey.
My experience of the Maillard Normandy rear hubs, of any configuration except fixie, going back to the 1970's was that the spindles certainly were not strong enough for my usage. My joke to myself, at the time, was that they were plasticene spindles - I had one that bent on it's first ride. My experience was that they were bad on 5-speed configuration.
I know that a 5-speed block would put the ball-race load towards the centre of the spindle.
Perhaps some fixie riders could tell us that the solid spindles didn't bend in fixie hubs.
Actually - I'm inquisitive about it now, and I'l like to be educated.

[Brucey]

with Normandy hubs, the spectre of bent/broken axles is never far away. Arguably solid axles are a lot worse, here. Not only are they smaller (3/8" vs. 10 mm) but when they break, you are properly stopped, whereas with a broken hollow axle, the QR skewer holds everything together for a while. This is usually sufficient to make the difference between walking and riding home, so it is not exactly a trivial difference!

[tatanab]

I used Normandy/Le Tour/Maillard from the late 60s until the early 80s with no problems, but news of axle failures reached me in the 80s and I took to carrying a spare with me when on tour. A local machining company (run by a cyclist) made me an axle of some better steel (40+ years ago, so do not recall what) and that is still in use today - admittedly with a new owner.

[JohnW]

with Normandy hubs, the spectre of bent/broken axles is never far away. Arguably solid axles are a lot worse, here. Not only are they smaller (3/8" vs. 10 mm) but when they break, you are properly stopped, whereas with a broken hollow axle, the QR skewer holds everything together for a while. This is usually sufficient to make the difference between walking and riding home, so it is not exactly a trivial difference!

Thanks for that Brucey. Down the years I've had a Maillard hollow spindle break once under me - about 40 miles from home, but I can't count the number I've had deflect/bend beyond use. I did struggle home on the broken spindle and always carried a spare spindle with me after that.
It was so inconvenient that I gave up on Maillards and bought Campag record large-flange hubs for all bikes - sometime late 70's/early 8o's and I'm still using them. There was never a bend or a break regardless of mileage. I'm still using a couple, although now I'm in my 80's myself I don't put them under any real stress!

[Carlton green]

I can relate to bent axles, had a few and on bikes not fitted with small chain wheels (which can produce high bearing loading). The quick release ones are better (than the solid axles) because the compressive preload load in them opposes some of the bending stress, and I suspect that the material (in the quick release axles) is stronger too.

My bikes have whatever affordable second hand bits happen to be on them and hence Normandy hubs are familiar to me. Getting hold of spare cones and axles for freewheel hubs has been a challenge. On the basis that an unserviceable part can only be improved by whatever I can find that fits I’ve had to be pragmatic.

This is a long thread and I haven’t read through it. Does anyone have a good source of new axles, cones and the like for these older hubs?

[Brucey]

...... Does anyone have a good source of new axles, cones and the like for these older hubs?

The Cycle Division (amongst others) sell inexpensive axles in 10 x 1 mm complete with cones and locknuts. The cones will take a polish, but being 'one size fits all' the OD is a bit small. For a very long time I thought this a problem, but now I view it as an opportunity instead. It is of course an opportunity to make an improvement. Specifically I think you can easily add seals/shields as follows;

1) SG the cones so there is now a small groove in the OD.
2) Add a plastic or rubber part to the cone, so it is a tight fit in the groove.
3) SG the plastic or rubber part so it is a better fit in the Mailliard dustcap.

If you are also able to support/bond the cups with epoxy resin (or convert to cartridge bearings), and add an outrigger bearing, it should be possible to extend the life of these hubs almost indefinitely.

[853]

thinking about the Normandy double-fixed hubs, I have a vague recollection that the last ones of these I saw for sale (in about 1988...?) may have had plastic dustcaps rather than pressed steel ones. Does anyone else remember this?

cheers

You are correct, and here are photos of my 1983 fixed/freewheel rear hub, which I bought new and built into a wheel in 1983 whilst still at school.

I'm pleased to say that the wheel is still in use, and I rode it four days ago. This may be because, as sharp-eyed readers will have noticed, I changed the axle for a 1981 Campagnolo Record one so I could ride it with QR.

[Carlton green]

...... Does anyone have a good source of new axles, cones and the like for these older hubs?

The Cycle Division (amongst others) sell inexpensive axles in 10 x 1 mm complete with cones and locknuts.

Thank you for that name; I’d not heard of them before, but perhaps that’s because they are wholesalers. It’s useful to see what a retailer might order though: https://www.thecycledivision.com/produc ... es-wheels/
I’ve used the Weldtite spindles (which they stock) and they seem to work, the ones I purchased were sourced on eBay.

Can anyone suggest further suppliers please.

[Brucey]

shimano rear cones work too, but conversion to cartridge bearings is probably best.

[Carlton green]

shimano rear cones work too, but conversion to cartridge bearings is probably best.

Thank you.

[GrandPrix]

hubs spares from the 1960s

Hello Brucey,
I have only just registered in the forum so this is my first post. . I found this thread very helpful.

I have a Raleigh Grand Prix (1978 model, I think). It has, according to the Raleigh catalogue, Normandy Sport hubs. I had a problem with the front axle after a helpful chap in a bike co-op here in the US serviced the hub and changed the original cones to some "generic"ones. It was OK for a while but then developed some ugly intermittent noises. He has now put a different axle in with some different cones. It runs very smoothly so far (1 week's use) but I would like, if possible, to get an authentic complete axle "set". According to the Maillard catalogue extract in your post a complete axle set would be part number 3210. Would that be all I need? That is, the axle would come with cones, lock nuts, etc.? Do you think they are available to buy?

I would appreciate any advice or guidance on this. You seem to be a very knowledgeable chap.

[Brucey]

..... According to the Maillard catalogue extract in your post a complete axle set would be part number 3210. Would that be all I need? That is, the axle would come with cones, lock nuts, etc.? Do you think they are available to buy?.....

Maillard spare parts have not been available in the UK for many years. I should think that things are similar in the US. If the cups are in good shape, different cones may work well. However, if there is much of a wear track (which there nearly always is, in a used hub), the profile of the new cones needs to exactly match the old ones, which in most cases means identical replacements, ideally. As ever, there is more than one way to skin a cat, so you have choices. You can;

1) use identical replacement cones.

2) use cones of identical profile.

3) use cones of identical profile as part of a complete axle assy, revising the seals as needs be.

4) use a replacement cup.

5) regrind and reinforce the original cup.

6) Convert the hub to use cartridge bearings.

I have quite recently figured out a couple of ways you can convert almost any Hoffmann (deep groove) bearing into a stronger full complement type. In addition, I have figured out a good way to do the hub conversion and to keep the bearings happy thereafter. The net result should be a super-smooth adjustable hub, with unchanged looks but rivalling the very best in terms of smoothness and longevity.

[GrandPrix]

Thank you very much for your reply.
Of the "skinning the cat" options you listed, I do think I can go with number 1, at least until experience tells me otherwise. The gent who did the real work in servicing the hub inspected the ball race in the hub and seemed to think it was in good condition. I paid for new bearings, too, so maybe what he finally accomplished will be good for a while. However, he did suggest I scout around for a kosher axle set i.e. as fitted to my bike when new.
I found this today https://www.ebay.com/itm/373870734751?i ... R4aj2-q8ZA.
I shall think about buying it.
Thanks again, sir!

[Brucey]

that listing is for a later hub but only the shape of the shell is different. Most hubs with that shell version were sold as Sachs-Maillard.