Cycling UK Forum

Lightweight Montane jacket and Rainlegs, with quick-drying stuff underneath to suit the weather.

Pete

The debate about whether being wet from condensation is better than being wet from the rain may never be settled. I think it is important to keep your torso warm at least. Once upon a time, chest protectors seemed to be all the rage. I see Lusso still make a couple of designs. I fancy these have been superseded by so-called gilets, which can be zipped open if necessary. I have one with a Gore Windstopper front and mesh back which is excellent. For long enough, I used a square of Cascade (?) material which was a Goretex copy. It was the back panel of a discarded jacket and it would tuck into the front of any close-fitting top, keeping out the worst of the cold and wet.

thirdcrank wrote:The debate about whether being wet from condensation is better than being wet from the rain may never be settled. I think it is important to keep your torso warm at least. Once upon a time, chest protectors seemed to be all the rage. I see Lusso still make a couple of designs. I fancy these have been superseded by so-called gilets, which can be zipped open if necessary. I have one with a Gore Windstopper front and mesh back which is excellent. For long enough, I used a square of Cascade (?) material which was a Goretex copy. It was the back panel of a discarded jacket and it would tuck into the front of any close-fitting top, keeping out the worst of the cold and wet.

I agree totally. I don't mind being wet as long as I'm warm.

mrsbloomsburybarton wrote:I bet those are easier to put on than rain trousers too! It made me laugh though when it mentioned rowing. I used to row and would have looked a right Jessie in a pair of those! Rain doesn't matter when you're rowing as you're warm anyway.

Dunno about that. A few years ago I had a small boat on a swinging mooring and used to row out to her, about 3/4 mile, in an 8ft pram dinghy.

In anything of a wind there was plenty of spray along with splashes from waves. It was best to wear your oilskins in most usual spring and autumn temperatures with the wind anything above about 3. I thought the people who looked Jessies rowing were the ones getting cold and wet. Life jacket a good idea as well.

Mick F wrote:I was out last Tuesday, and got absolutely soaked. Straight through my Goretex top.

Are you sure? Gortex is supposed to be waterproof. My GT cycling jacket and walking coat are both solid waterproof - maybe a bit of water runs in thru the collar and perhaps a bit of condensation, but otherwise none.

Ive heard that GT supposedly lasts for 5 years before the coating deteriorates, but mine are both circa 10 yrs and still performing well.

My Goretex top is about 15 or more years old. It's great, and I re-proof it regularly with Nickwax stuff.

The trouble is, nothing is waterproof that is "breathable". Goretex, for all it's fantastic properties will not stop a continuous downpour. Inches of rain fell that day whilst I was out.

I was far drier than I would have been without it of course, but I was still wet.

I think the point about Goretex is that if the outer layer is wet, i.e. soaked, the breathability is inevitably lost because vapour passing through the membrane will just hit water and condense into more. It will be wet inside in a pattern which exactly mirrors the soaked part outside (on a cyclist's jacket, usually the front) and it will seem to be leaking when it isn't.

The manufacturers combat this by treating the outer layer with a product to repel rain causing it to run off in droplets rather than soaking the surface. This treatment deteriorates with time and it is said that it can be revived with heat. (Tumble-drying, ironing.) Any reproofing has to be carefully done, using only the right stuff because if the pores in the breathable membrane become clogged with proofer, you are back to condensation.

I think Goretex is waterproof, in the sense that it will keep out water, and breathable, in the sense that it will let out water vapour, but the two together, especially in the conditions created by a vigorous cyclist in heavy rain are unattainable with present technology. In short, the front of the jacket will be soaking on the inside and it will feel as though it is leaking when it isn't.

If it wasn't penetrated by the rain, I must have lost one hell of a lot of fluids!

If one was to hold one's Goretex top horizontally, and fill a hollow with water, would it drip given enough time?

I have seen a machine in one specialist moutaineering / hiking shop to test Goretex for waterproofness. They explained to me that the main purpose was to demonstrate that the stuff wasn't leaking. That suggests to me it's a big problem.

As I suggested on a similar thread recently, line a collander with your jacket and see if it leaks when you fill it. Try spraying your coat with a hose or similar. You may be surprised. I think this was more of a problem with the earlier types of Goretex, before they realised they were going to have to make the outer layer water repellant.

It's now nearly twenty years since I bought my first Goretex cycling jacket and this issue has bugged me ever since.

Colander Experiment underway ..........

Give it ten minutes, and I'll make my report.

I'm amazed.

I lay my top across a colander stood on a dinner plate to catch any water.

I poured a good half-pint of water into the hollow, and left it for ten minutes.

BONE DRY underneath!

That's the way it should be, of course. But I doubted its ability as I usually get wet in heavy rain. This must because the membranes become blocked and stop the breathability.

Conclusion? - I'm naturally sweaty!!

Further conclusion? - Goretex is an expensive garment that doesn't keep you dry when it really needs to. May as well buy a cheap shower proof plastic top and sweat anyway. If you're going to get wet through sweat, do it cheaply!

In it's defence, if I'd been able to get under shelter for a little while, I could have taken it off, given it a good shake to revive the membrane, then carried on.

mick
if youve got the time can you do a repeat test to satisfy my curiosity?

Same test, but this time with something touching the central hollow. My thinking is with tents - most are waterproof to a certain extent until you touch the inside edge, it then leaks.

if youre busy/ put everything away, no probs.

Mick F wrote:I'm amazed.

I lay my top across a colander stood on a dinner plate to catch any water.

I poured a good half-pint of water into the hollow, and left it for ten minutes.

BONE DRY underneath!

That's the way it should be, of course. But I doubted its ability as I usually get wet in heavy rain. This must because the membranes become blocked and stop the breathability.

Conclusion? - I'm naturally sweaty!!

Further conclusion? - Goretex is an expensive garment that doesn't keep you dry when it really needs to. May as well buy a cheap shower proof plastic top and sweat anyway. If you're going to get wet through sweat, do it cheaply!

In it's defence, if I'd been able to get under shelter for a little while, I could have taken it off, given it a good shake to revive the membrane, then carried on.

Goretex garments can leak but it's usually through the seams. The other leakage area is at the neck and cuffs. Don't laugh - just think of all that water falling on to your jacket is also falling on your head and neck, trickling down into your clothes then being spread about by capillary action.

I don't understand why standard cycling jackets don't come with detachable or roll away hoods shaped to permit maximum side vision. All decent mountain jackets have good fitting hoods which permit turning to see whats behind.

IMO It's the triumph of style over practical function.

MickF

I think it would be unwise to go for something which was not breathable at all because then you really would see how much you, and all the rest of us sweat. If you doubt this, the experiment is to put something impermeable over a goretex jacket - a plastic sam browne belt is ideal, and go for a ride in the dry. There will be a moist patch under the sam brown belt where the escaped moisture has been trapped and has condensed. (I suppose the other experiment is try riding in a plastic mac.)

Pigman

When I've tried this before, it hasn't been the tent canvas thing. The testing machine I mentioned subjects to to much more pressure and it still usually doesn't leak. All this occurs because dry goretex laminate (i.e. the whole two or three layer fabric) is breathable, but it isn't when it's soaked.

steve climpson

Completely right about capillary action. Goretex garments often seem to get wet in the lower part of the sleeve and it seems to be water drawn up by calillary action from the cuff.

pigman wrote:mick
if youve got the time can you do a repeat test to satisfy my curiosity?

Same test, but this time with something touching the central hollow. My thinking is with tents - most are waterproof to a certain extent until you touch the inside edge, it then leaks.

if youre busy/ put everything away, no probs.

Been out shopping ........ Been down the pub too.

The test was touching the the colander on the inside of the back of the top. Remember that the Goretex was filled with half a pint of water inside the colander, so it must have been touching, like in a tent.