Cycling UK Forum

mjr wrote:No, it should be for the buyer to ensure a suitable unloading space is available and the deliverers to refuse if it is not. I am sure that our last two pieces of furniture delivered included warnings in the terms of sale that we were responsible for this and the delivery fee would be charged again if they had to come back.

But, how should the folks who live someplace like https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5062019 ... 312!8i6656 do that? Put up barricades in the street in fornt of their houses? They would never get deliveries at all under the circumstances described. Should they all drive, instead? Maybe with trailers they don't know how to use?

Because the harder you make for them to get deliveries, the more likely they are to do it themselves.

You are making them responsible for something that they have very little control over.

pwa wrote:

mjr wrote:

pwa wrote:I suspect that a pair of delivery personnel loading up with furniture to deliver to half a dozen addresses they have never been to before may not have all the permits you would like, [...]

They should load up in some sort of purpose-built off-road loading bay because that's not going to be an occasional occurence.

pwa wrote:Do you think it is practical for them to do a site visit to each address prior to arrival and apply for permits where required? I think that is unrealistic.

No, it should be for the buyer to ensure a suitable unloading space is available and the deliverers to refuse if it is not. I am sure that our last two pieces of furniture delivered included warnings in the terms of sale that we were responsible for this and the delivery fee would be charged again if they had to come back.

Lots of streets would never get any deliveries if that were applied rigorously. People would just have to get used to life without furniture.

And not move house or get coal their delivered or get their heating oil delivered or get their bins emptied or get their milk delivered.

This gives a bit of insight into how our criminal law works, or rather doesn't.

The criminal law doesn't actively permit things; rather, it imposes prohibitions with exceptions. In this case, the relevant bits of the HC seem very clear, until it's realised that they should include something like "subject to numerous exceptions." Apart from anything else, training enforcers about all the exceptions, not only here but every other bit of traffic law is expensive. These things are often worded in so complicated a way that they become a test of comprehension.

I'm not convinced that common sense works, in that it's the antics of the inconsiderate people which cause the problems. IME, parking is one of those things where many people think the law only applies to everyone else.

We've slowly edged away from the criminal law for yellow lines and IMO the whole traffic management caboodle needs to be rethought.

thirdcrank wrote:I'm not convinced that common sense works, in that it's the antics of the inconsiderate people which cause the problems. IME, parking is one of those things where many people think the law only applies to everyone else.

We've slowly edged away from the criminal law for yellow lines and IMO the whole traffic management caboodle needs to be rethought.

Much of the built infrastructure in many towns and cities dates from before motor traffic was common and the roads were often much less busy. The majority have no off road areas suitable for parking. Common sense would suggest that vehicles be allowed to stop on the road to make deliveries/collect goods from, for example, terraced houses and business premises where that is the only access. The suggestion, in a previous post, that it is "for the buyer to ensure a suitable unloading space" is impossible in many such areas.

Vorpal wrote:

mjr wrote:No, it should be for the buyer to ensure a suitable unloading space is available and the deliverers to refuse if it is not. I am sure that our last two pieces of furniture delivered included warnings in the terms of sale that we were responsible for this and the delivery fee would be charged again if they had to come back.

But, how should the folks who live someplace like https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5062019 ... 312!8i6656 do that? Put up barricades in the street in fornt of their houses? They would never get deliveries at all under the circumstances described. Should they all drive, instead? Maybe with trailers they don't know how to use?

Because the harder you make for them to get deliveries, the more likely they are to do it themselves.

You are making them responsible for something that they have very little control over.

A quick unloading of a single item is a bit different to delivery of a truckload of scaffolding supplies - but yes, for some deliveries, they'd need to unload the item and then either have enough crew to move it without or wait while the driver parks the vehicle and returns - and it seems like many want to avoid paying the proper costs of delivery these days and some suppliers are scared to ask.

Now, for that example, according to the signs on the lampposts, that's a resident permit parking zone already, so the resident should just go to the council and get a loading permit for the specific extent needed on whatever day. Then the parking operations department (or whatever it's called there) puts out cones with notices some time before and at the start of the loading day any vehicles parked in the loading space get towed.

I know everyone can keep bikeshedding rare exceptions, but we have processes to manage exceptions already. Probably most areas with insufficient parking and loading bays should become permit-regulated in normal use to make it easier, but the park-anywhere nutters usually oppose them to the detriment of us all.

pete75 wrote: ... Much of the built infrastructure in many towns and cities dates from before motor traffic was common and the roads were often much less busy. The majority have no off road areas suitable for parking. Common sense would suggest that vehicles be allowed to stop on the road to make deliveries/collect goods from, for example, terraced houses and business premises where that is the only access. The suggestion, in a previous post, that it is "for the buyer to ensure a suitable unloading space" is impossible in many such areas.

I get all that and more besides. Go back to the days of horse transport and the problems seem to have related to carters tying up the horse, disappearing into the boozer and forgetting their horse.

Roads' principal purpose relates to movement, but that has to include things like loading and unloading at the destination. All fair enough. What's crept in is the unfortunate characteristic of motor vehicles that they can be very convenient when moving but an embarrassment when they are not. We've accepted that the highway is OK for parking beyond what was once deemed "necessary," on-street residential parking being the obvious example.

My main point is that IME, a lot of people think that restrictions apply to everybody else.

Vorpal wrote:One can hardly transport a heavy toolbox and building supplies a half mile (or more!) on busy streets with a trolley.

Actually you can, and I have. Well not a heavy tool box, but a (very) heavy guitar amplifier, a not so heavy one, two guitars, an amp stand and a large bag of leads and accessories. Many theatres, in city centres, are becoming more and more difficult to access. The City Varieties in Leeds, for instance, is practically impossible to get near with a car at certain times of the day. So I used to park in a car park some distance away and push my gear through the city. Felt like a bit of a roving tinker, but I got there. It was probably actually quicker than navigating the pedestrianised zone at low speed in a car.

Granted if you're tradesperson making a 15 minute service call then that might become time costly.

mikeymo wrote:

Vorpal wrote:One can hardly transport a heavy toolbox and building supplies a half mile (or more!) on busy streets with a trolley.

Actually you can, and I have. Well not a heavy tool box, but a (very) heavy guitar amplifier, a not so heavy one, two guitars, an amp stand and a large bag of leads and accessories. Many theatres, in city centres, are becoming more and more difficult to access. The City Varieties in Leeds, for instance, is practically impossible to get near with a car at certain times of the day. So I used to park in a car park some distance away and push my gear through the city. Felt like a bit of a roving tinker, but I got there. It was probably actually quicker than navigating the pedestrianised zone at low speed in a car.

Granted if you're tradesperson making a 15 minute service call then that might become time costly.

Really? Try that with a couple of tons of bricks and the sand and cement needed to lay them.

pete75 wrote:

mikeymo wrote:

Vorpal wrote:One can hardly transport a heavy toolbox and building supplies a half mile (or more!) on busy streets with a trolley.

Actually you can, and I have. Well not a heavy tool box, but a (very) heavy guitar amplifier, a not so heavy one, two guitars, an amp stand and a large bag of leads and accessories. Many theatres, in city centres, are becoming more and more difficult to access. The City Varieties in Leeds, for instance, is practically impossible to get near with a car at certain times of the day. So I used to park in a car park some distance away and push my gear through the city. Felt like a bit of a roving tinker, but I got there. It was probably actually quicker than navigating the pedestrianised zone at low speed in a car.

Granted if you're tradesperson making a 15 minute service call then that might become time costly.

Really? Try that with a couple of tons of bricks and the sand and cement needed to lay them.

Yes, I take your point.

One wishes traffic/parking wardens would issue more tickets and do less 'education'

Are traffic warden jokes socially unacceptable now?

pete75 has made the point, but I was more thinking the quantities needed for a larger job than smaller. But even say a 3 piece bathroom suite and a couple of pallets of paint, tiles, glues, leveling compound, etc. would be a bit much. At the very least, it would take multiple trips, and seems a bit OTT to take an hour doing something like that when the same vehicle which holds those supplies could do it in 15 minutes.

I've transported small quantities of building and gardening supplies with bike and trailer, or a trolley. But if I had all the things for a completely new bathroom, or garden wall? I don't think so.

Where I live a lot of houses have oil fired heating. The supply tanks are invariably put somewhere near the street so the delivery tanker has no option but to block the street for other vehicles while making a delivery as the streets are all pretty narrow. I see this on a regular basis but nobody seems to get very agitated about it as there are usually alternative routes and a few hundred gallons do not take long to pump anyway. We seem to be fairly laid back here.