Cycling UK Forum

Spinners wrote:(snip) but after that he was toast and it's for the best.

A toasted baker! Perhaps this is emblematic of a mass media self-harmer with an inept grasp of the processes involved in media-blabbering; and of the naural dangers. He fell under the red hot spotlight (or was it the grill) of public attention.

Cugel

Cugel wrote:

pwa wrote:

Cugel wrote:
Are you defenders of the creature so naive? Baker knew exactly what he was saying and it's implications, context and likely effects. He was, as he has often done before, appealing to "the lads" with his mainsteam "lookitme, a proper footbal fan" schtick.

Now he has the publicity he craves, enhancing his footie-boy image. He will have another lucrative job soon, perhaps with one of the various right-wing newspap rags or other such media horns.

Of course, I could be wrong and he could just be very stupid. Ha!

Cugel

I see him as someone who has made a daft mistake, you see him as a racist. I could be wrong and you could be right, but you seem to have listened to more of his output than me. Have you any specific examples of racism in things he has said in the past? Or is it just that he is associated with football and you associate football with racism? I know there is racism in football, but there is also anti-racism.

I suspect he made a foolish "football fan joke" that he knew would appeal to "the lads", in an unguarded moment. I suspect that the nature of "the joke" indicates at least an endemic racism present in many of us British. I suspect that he knew his "joke" would cause a media frenzy and thus publicity (all of which is good to such slebs) but that he underestimated the degree of frenzy it would cause.

One major cultural aspect of football support in Britain (and elsewhere) is it's use as a vehicle for nationalism, tribalism and racism. This aspect is domnant - far more dominant than any anti-racist element, as anyone can hear in the football chants.

Oh dear oh dear. You are a very ignorant man, aren't you? And yet so quick to criticise someone having a very bad week, someone you clearly know little about; how heroic of you!

When challenged, you have shown no evidence of your accusations. And now you are showing your own bigotry by branding anyone involved in football as guilty of racism by association.

Typical keyboard warrior!

mjr wrote:

mattheus wrote:

mjr wrote:He trolled, twice, presumably hoping to get some attention, and lost his job.

Where is the "trolling" aspect of this?
(I'm pretty sure I understand the term, it's ben around for years, but people do sometimes use it in odd ways ...)

He has explained the intent of his tweet - what do you know about the intent that was different? And in what way does it qualify as "trolling"?

Even if the intent was only to liken a royal child to a circus act like he said, that's obviously going to offend some monarchists, isn't it?

Er ... so you're saying that a bit of mild satire about the royals is "trolling"? Golly, you _are_ easily offended.

Cugel wrote:A toasted baker! Perhaps this is emblematic of a mass media self-harmer with an inept grasp of the processes involved in media-blabbering; and of the naural dangers. He fell under the red hot spotlight (or was it the grill) of public attention.

For someone who's inept he's won quite a few awards and has never been short of radio work. He has put his foot in his mouth, but on here posters frequently come out with statements which are wrong and opinions which have not been well researched. If this forum were policed by the BBC there'd be a few sackings everyday!

But this forum is not policed by the British Broadcasting Communists, and never will be.

Lance Dopestrong wrote:But this forum is not policed by the British Broadcasting Communists, and never will be.

Baker's father was a communist. And a few pages ago l thought you approved of the BBC's actions in sacking him.

mattheus wrote:

mjr wrote:Even if the intent was only to liken a royal child to a circus act like he said, that's obviously going to offend some monarchists, isn't it?

Er ... so you're saying that a bit of mild satire about the royals is "trolling"? Golly, you _are_ easily offended.

I am not a monarchist. And that wasn't satire and I don't remember Danny Baker claiming it was.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00055bx

Geoff Lloyd. Hope he has a good show.

Cugel wrote:
...
One major cultural aspect of football support in Britain (and elsewhere) is it's use as a vehicle for nationalism, tribalism and racism. This aspect is domnant - far more dominant than any anti-racist element, as anyone can hear in the football chants. There aren't any football chants heard that are anti-racist, are there? Correct me if I'm wrong.

........

Cugel

Chelsea are often the butt of chants about their, or their players racism eg "where's your racist centre half"

Manchester city fans boo the champions league anthem (partly) as a result of the risible fine imposed on opposition whose fans racially abused city players.

Football fans are far from perfect, but neither are they universally racist. Just as not all foreign secretaries regard Africans as "picaninnies with watermelon smiles"

roubaixtuesday wrote:

Cugel wrote:
...
One major cultural aspect of football support in Britain (and elsewhere) is it's use as a vehicle for nationalism, tribalism and racism. This aspect is domnant - far more dominant than any anti-racist element, as anyone can hear in the football chants. There aren't any football chants heard that are anti-racist, are there? Correct me if I'm wrong.

........

Cugel

Chelsea are often the butt of chants about their, or their players racism eg "where's your racist centre half"

Manchester city fans boo the champions league anthem (partly) as a result of the risible fine imposed on opposition whose fans racially abused city players.

Football fans are far from perfect, but neither are they universally racist. Just as not all foreign secretaries regard Africans as "picaninnies with watermelon smiles"

Phew - that's a relief! I woz worried that Tommy had suborned every one of them, with his brave haircut.

Still, there's few other places where large numbers regularly emit racist chants, taunts and gestures as a norm. Well, rallies of swivel-eyed white supremacists perhaps. Correct me once more if I'm again wrong. I did hear a rumour about the fanatics lining the route of Le Tour last July......

Perhaps there's hope and the anti-racist chants will sweep away the banana-throwing hooligans & yobs, back under their dirty old carpet in The Dog & Bone? I suspect not.

Cugel

mattheus wrote:

Cugel wrote:(snip) And now you are showing your own bigotry by branding anyone involved in football as guilty of racism by association.

Typical keyboard warrior!

I can thrust and parry a keyboard with the best of them! Sometimes I even use the z or the q.

As to football and racism ..... no, it's all sweetness and light there apart from one or two rotten apples, eh? All good.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... xperiences

Cugel, without a deep love for The Game.

Football fans are a funny lot.

Tribal, arbitrary, yet full of humour and comradeship too.

The racism and subsequent anti- racism of football fans is very much a mirror of the country as a whole.

I shall choose to believe that football fans are better rather than worse than society at large until the conservative party has the equivalent of "kick it out". At least football acknowledges it has a problem, the beginning of a solution although far from the end.

Cugel wrote:

roubaixtuesday wrote:

Cugel wrote:
...
One major cultural aspect of football support in Britain (and elsewhere) is it's use as a vehicle for nationalism, tribalism and racism. This aspect is domnant - far more dominant than any anti-racist element, as anyone can hear in the football chants. There aren't any football chants heard that are anti-racist, are there? Correct me if I'm wrong.

........

Cugel

Chelsea are often the butt of chants about their, or their players racism eg "where's your racist centre half"

Manchester city fans boo the champions league anthem (partly) as a result of the risible fine imposed on opposition whose fans racially abused city players.

Football fans are far from perfect, but neither are they universally racist. Just as not all foreign secretaries regard Africans as "picaninnies with watermelon smiles"

Phew - that's a relief! I woz worried that Tommy had suborned every one of them, with his brave haircut.

Still, there's few other places where large numbers regularly emit racist chants, taunts and gestures as a norm. Well, rallies of swivel-eyed white supremacists perhaps. Correct me once more if I'm again wrong. I did hear a rumour about the fanatics lining the route of Le Tour last July......

Perhaps there's hope and the anti-racist chants will sweep away the banana-throwing hooligans & yobs, back under their dirty old carpet in The Dog & Bone? I suspect not.

Cugel

You do an injustice to the football supporters who every week try to police the chants of their fellow supporters. When did you last hear Liverpool supporters making monkey chants at a black opposition player? There is some real social change going on there and you should have the generosity of spirit to recognise it, rather than just thinking the worst of people. Most of the racial abuse from football supporters these days is at foreign clubs.

Cugel wrote:Still, there's few other places where large numbers regularly emit racist chants, taunts and gestures as a norm. Well, rallies of swivel-eyed white supremacists perhaps. Correct me once more if I'm again wrong. I did hear a rumour about the fanatics lining the route of Le Tour last July......

Where do you get your rumours? But it depends upon your choice of fanatic, up to 28% of turnout in French elections has been for the Front National (or National Rally). Go and see the Tour, chances are you'll rub shoulders with a few of them.

pwa wrote:

Cugel wrote:

roubaixtuesday wrote:
Chelsea are often the butt of chants about their, or their players racism eg "where's your racist centre half"

Manchester city fans boo the champions league anthem (partly) as a result of the risible fine imposed on opposition whose fans racially abused city players.

Football fans are far from perfect, but neither are they universally racist. Just as not all foreign secretaries regard Africans as "picaninnies with watermelon smiles"

Phew - that's a relief! I woz worried that Tommy had suborned every one of them, with his brave haircut.

Still, there's few other places where large numbers regularly emit racist chants, taunts and gestures as a norm. Well, rallies of swivel-eyed white supremacists perhaps. Correct me once more if I'm again wrong. I did hear a rumour about the fanatics lining the route of Le Tour last July......

Perhaps there's hope and the anti-racist chants will sweep away the banana-throwing hooligans & yobs, back under their dirty old carpet in The Dog & Bone? I suspect not.

Cugel

You do an injustice to the football supporters who every week try to police the chants of their fellow supporters. When did you last hear Liverpool supporters making monkey chants at a black opposition player? There is some real social change going on there and you should have the generosity of spirit to recognise it, rather than just thinking the worst of people. Most of the racial abuse from football supporters these days is at foreign clubs.

My dislike of football culture, in the form of the ubiquitous fan, has a long personal history, which I won't bore you with. However, I doubt if you'll want to deny that football supporting has been, and still is, a vehicle for many of the most egregious behaviours of the population at large. Football supporting has always contained a large (once overwhelming) portion of the most intolerant and violent attitudes within our country. A yob culture of racism, homophobia, violent hooliganism and all the rest.

But I do recognise that there are efforts by supporters themselves to change this extremely poor (but perhaps deserved) reputation. Here's an interesting piece about efforts to reduce, or at least oppose, another football crowd norm: that of rabid homophobia:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/ ... c74afed48a

The article gives hope that the sort of football supporter you allude to - a decent person who would like to enjoy the sport without finding themselves in the midst of a huge gang of far right Tommies - is at least trying to oppose the various hooligan elements. But the article also notes just how hard that is; and a lack of success in many places, including the local club level.

******
It may be an over-sentitivity on my part, but all my own experience of football supporting (including that local club level stuff) is that it's full of intolerance of every kind, often spilling over into hatred and violence if challenged. It would be very nice if that were changing for the better but every indication is that it's actually getting worse - or re-emerging - under our present frenzied political circumstances.

The Danny Baker incident seems a sign of the times. He can't have been unaware of the implications of his "joke", no matter his protestations now he himself is under the cosh. My suspicion (and that of many others) is that he had somehow come to think that this sort of "humour" was once more legitimate, as it was all through his early decades as a person with "a deep love of the game", a euphemism oft-used by those hankering after many football supporter's desire for the days of old when one could call a spade anything he liked, so to speak.

Cugel