Cycling UK Forum

reohn2 wrote:

Lance Dopestrong wrote:Do you actually get that out of your C Max, or is that what the display tells you?

Nope,it's checking full to empty and doing the the calcs.
It's fair to say we do very little stop start driving,ours being mainly motorways at 70/75mph and I'm light on the right foot.
Before the present Cmax we had a 1.8l petrol(passed on to no 2 daughter) which returned 37mpg and around 22mpg towing but it didn't have anywhere near the deisel's torque.

Boney's correct it's the 140psi engine,the car is a gem,drives very well and is cavernous inside,a great feature is any one or all three rear seats can be removed turning it effectively intova van,great for carrying bikes even tandems.It's also cheap as chips to service with part being very cheap as it's a tall Focus estate
Highly recommended!

In which case you're comparing apples with trouser-presses v-a-v Mick's car, which operates in a particularly challenging environment in terms of mpg

I cannot for the life of me see how driving an automatic dumbs down driving,a mystery that needs explanation

Mick F wrote:

Lance Dopestrong wrote:Strictly speaking the Toyota system isn't an automatic - it's an epicyclic system, there are no gears to change, although from the point of view of the drivers right foot there's little difference.

Yes, this is correct.
The car drives as an EV, a combined EV/Engine, and just Engine.
The engine swaps from Otto Cycle to Simulated Atkinson Cycle as required and the engine revs at the optimum at all times.
The driver has no control of these things and just drives the car.

Even round here with all the hills, we're getting 55mpg just driving locally. It's capable of 60-70mpg on main roads.

The brakes are a combination of Regen, Regen and rear only, and Regen and all four brakes.
Again, the driver has no control over these, and just brakes to retard the car.
This is a digression though. I'm not suggesting that all cars should be Hybrids, but it wouldn't be a bad idea at all.

I feel that "normal" gearboxes are an anachronism. The standard manual gearbox system should be consigned to the museum and better systems should have been commonplace by now. Typical of the motor industry!!

That's interesting. There seem to be different hybrid designs for operating the engines to put power to wheel.

Ours is a Mitsubishi that has electric motors on both axles, a petrol engine and a generator. The battery charge with electric motors alone does about 30 miles but there are two modes in which the petrol engine can also be used:

* "save", which employs the petrol engine to drive the generator which supplies juice to the battery to keep it at a set level; and

* "save-charge" which supplies current from petrol engine driving the generator to drive the electric motors and to charge up the battery to full.

Generally the petrol engine, if used, only drives the generator to produce charge for the electric motors - unless the vehicles driven very hard (foot to the floor) or fast (above 80kph) when the petrol engine can also drive the front wheels direct. The torque with electric motors is fairly constant at all motor speeds so no need for gears. The petrol engine seems to have some form of auto-gearing but generally is in one "gear" revving to charge the battery and/or supply a current to the electric motors.

The driver can choose to use only the battery or one of the above petrol/electric motor combinations. Hard acceleration or very steep hill climbing might see the petrol engine come on automatically, even if EV-only mode has been selected.

In addition, there's regenerative braking which, down long steep Welsh hills, puts back a surprising amount of charge into the battery rather than heating up and wearing down brake shoes and discs. This has five levels of resistance from none to quite a lot. Paddles either side of the steering wheel let you instantaneously apply the amount of drag required, just as with an ordinary brake.

In practice, it's possible to get about 40-45mpg when using the petrol engine to run the generator to run the elctric motors when the battery's empty. That's surprising for a 4-wheel drive SUV thing of 1.8 metric tons. What seems to increase the mpg is the ability to trundle along with no drive and no regenerative braking - i.e. to freewheel with the engine off, which isn't usually advised in an ICE car. Any regen braking puts a bit into the battery which is subsequently used to drive the electric motors until that charge is used up. The petrol engine automatically switches on and off in all this.

So, freewheeling with engine-off + no heating brakes up but creating battery charge instead + no wasting fuel using the petrol engine as a compression brake .... all adds up to more mpg.

It suits us as our journeys are typically 12-30 miles a day so 99% of the time it's running on solar panel-supplied electricity. In fact, the software gives warnings then enforcements to use the petrol engine at least once every 3 months, so it doesn't go moribund. There's also a demand to put in bits of fresh petrol on a similar schedule as apparently that goes off with age too. So far it's had £20-summick worth of petrol put in since we got it some three months ago.

Hybrids are sold as being able to be all things to all drivers. This Mitsubishi will still do 450 miles on one battery charge and a full tank of fuel, although most of that would be on petrol. As a 99% electric-run, charged-via-solar run-about full of wife, dogs, bikes or other paraphenalia, it's very quiet, clean-green and inexpensive to run.

Cugel

Bonefishblues wrote:

reohn2 wrote:

Lance Dopestrong wrote:Do you actually get that out of your C Max, or is that what the display tells you?

Nope,it's checking full to empty and doing the the calcs.
It's fair to say we do very little stop start driving,ours being mainly motorways at 70/75mph and I'm light on the right foot.
Before the present Cmax we had a 1.8l petrol(passed on to no 2 daughter) which returned 37mpg and around 22mpg towing but it didn't have anywhere near the deisel's torque.

Boney's correct it's the 140psi engine,the car is a gem,drives very well and is cavernous inside,a great feature is any one or all three rear seats can be removed turning it effectively intova van,great for carrying bikes even tandems.It's also cheap as chips to service with part being very cheap as it's a tall Focus estate
Highly recommended!

In which case you're comparing apples with trouser-presses v-a-v Mick's car, which operates in a particularly challenging environment in terms of mpg

I'll take that,though I did think with such a small vehicle and being a hybrid it wouldve done better.

BTW as a foot note,every MOT the tester has remarked on 'clean'(his words not mine) the deisel Cmax is on emissions

Bonefishblues wrote:

Cyril Haearn wrote:

Bonefishblues wrote:This is an ill-informed post, I'd suggest. An automatic gearbox dumbs-down driving? It lowers the capability of drivers? Exactly how, pray?
..

Well-informed I think, with an auto drivers have much much less work
Tried to count how many times I changed gear driving 10 km to work
Scores and scores
..
Maybe auto drivers are even worse somombiers

Based on what, exactly? Whilst you were busy counting the number of gearchanges (for what reason exactly?), how well were you concentrating on actually driving?

Have you ever owned an automatic transmission car?

I tried to calculate while sitting at home, I think I need an excel spreadsheet and some time Shall report back in due course
Yes I have owned an automatic and driven several I did not own

Bonefishblues wrote:...but it's poor in snow, yes, and I have no idea whether you can tow with a Prius, so I guess that rules them out for, what percentage of the population?

No idea about snow with our Yaris. If there was to be any snow, I wouldn't be driving anyway.

Our Yaris isn't homologated to tow, but you can pile loads of stuff on the roof rack, fill the boot with luggage as well as carry five adults. Seems daft to me that I can't tow a small trailer with junk to the dump, or bring timber home from the woodyard.

In America almost all cars are automatic and have been since the 1960s. Most automatic cars have torque converters which slip making them inherently less economical than simple cheap to produce conventional gearboxes.
My turbo petrol SEAT Ateca is an automatic, there are all sorts of gizmos...paddles to overide the gears up and down, and different settings applying to change points etc which never get used. The Ateca is as refined as any Merc I ever owned, incredibly quiet and smooth. All you can hear is tyre noise at any speed. You can hear the engine if you floor it, but most of the time nothing from the engine. After a diesel its heaven. The only pain is the Auto stop start.which always gets switched off.
More technology appeals to buyers to sell new cars, but more technology means more to fail and ensure a steady stream of serviceing and repair work for garages.

Al

PS:
Dumbing down driving?
Yes please! Make it easy and pleasurable and relaxing please and with both hands on the wheel all the time. No worries or faff at all.

We don't all want to drive using feet and hands just to change gear. Stupid idea if you ask me. Fine in the "stone age" of car design, but surely we should all have progressed by now?

Driving an auto or even a Hybrid like mine, they are quicker and simpler to drive, are quick off the line, easy peasy with hill-starts, and are wonderful overtakers, especially a Hybrid. Best car we've ever had for instant and immediate no fuss power.

Cyril Haearn wrote:

Bonefishblues wrote:

Cyril Haearn wrote:Well-informed I think, with an auto drivers have much much less work
Tried to count how many times I changed gear driving 10 km to work
Scores and scores
..
Maybe auto drivers are even worse somombiers

Based on what, exactly? Whilst you were busy counting the number of gearchanges (for what reason exactly?), how well were you concentrating on actually driving?

Have you ever owned an automatic transmission car?

I tried to calculate while sitting at home, I think I need an excel spreadsheet and some time Shall report back in due course
Yes I have owned an automatic and driven several I did not own

You said you counted, hence my assumption. I am happy that you have clarified that you in fact did this at home by way of a calculation.

Mick F wrote:PS:
Dumbing down driving?
Yes please! Make it easy and pleasurable and relaxing please and with both hands on the wheel all the time. No worries or faff at all.

We don't all want to drive using feet and hands just to change gear. Stupid idea if you ask me. Fine in the "stone age" of car design, but surely we should all have progressed by now?

Driving an auto or even a Hybrid like mine, they are quicker and simpler to drive, are quick off the line, easy peasy with hill-starts, and are wonderful overtakers, especially a Hybrid. Best car we've ever had for instant and immediate no fuss power.

I have to agree,youngest daughter has an Overfinch Land Rover Discovery 3l diesel auto,other than it's shear bulk and topheavy handling it's a doddle to drive,it doesn't evdn have a gearstick,just a knob you turn to select driving or parking mode.
A beast of thing that I wouldn't want to own.

Bonefishblues wrote:

Eammno wrote:Like all the other automatic stuff you now get on cars, automatic gearboxes are all about expanding the market, to include the less capable, or less confident drivers. Problem is this dumbing down also lowers the average capability of drivers and encourages the lazy attitude we all experience.
It's why the industry is keen to promote self driving vehicles.
OK for those just wanting to get from A to B, but not so good for those who want to participate in the process and enjoy the driving.

This is an ill-informed post, I'd suggest. An automatic gearbox dumbs-down driving? It lowers the capability of drivers? Exactly how, pray?

Those who buy premium sportscars/supercars don't now have a choice of manual gearboxes any more. Why? Because nobody ordered them, so they stopped being made.

Fellows who like revving as they fiercely grip the gear lever are often deluded as to the meaning of "better driver". The best criterion I know of "better driver" is: how much does he or she scare the passengers?

I know many, many who are scary. A good portion of them are gearstick-gripping revvers who are under the illusion that all roads, including the ones with 20 or 30mph signs, are racetracks.

Cugel

Cugel wrote:

Bonefishblues wrote:

Eammno wrote:Like all the other automatic stuff you now get on cars, automatic gearboxes are all about expanding the market, to include the less capable, or less confident drivers. Problem is this dumbing down also lowers the average capability of drivers and encourages the lazy attitude we all experience.
It's why the industry is keen to promote self driving vehicles.
OK for those just wanting to get from A to B, but not so good for those who want to participate in the process and enjoy the driving.

This is an ill-informed post, I'd suggest. An automatic gearbox dumbs-down driving? It lowers the capability of drivers? Exactly how, pray?

Those who buy premium sportscars/supercars don't now have a choice of manual gearboxes any more. Why? Because nobody ordered them, so they stopped being made.

Fellows who like revving as they fiercely grip the gear lever are often deluded as to the meaning of "better driver". The best criterion I know of "better driver" is: how much does he or she scare the passengers?

I know many, many who are scary. A good portion of them are gearstick-gripping revvers who are under the illusion that all roads, including the ones with 20 or 30mph signs, are racetracks.

Cugel

Am agree.

Not on the road, but one of the most impressive pieces of driving I've ever encountered was whilst being a passenger in a silly-quick racing Caterham driven by a professional driver around Goodwood. I was expecting rorty, racy, shouty, extreme angles of slip a la Clarkson. Instead I got ridiculously smooth, incredibly fast progress with a driver totally in control.

Good drivers make progress without anyone being aware of them, so well do they 'blend' with the traffic.

Hi,
Volvo XC 90 t8 I have seen one of those when I pulled into the car park one day.
That's a bit of a tank,
Someone thinks they're going to tow a lot of horseboxes?
Its the price of these things I find a Little alarming.
The depreciation from knew I would find a little bit depressing unless you intend to keep the car for half a lifetime.

My camper is a bit of an old thing but I like listening to the gearbox churning, Which can be heard even above the engine, transmission in front rather underneath, the gearbox is mounted at the rear, As a lover of motorbikes I like to hear the engine.
Yes I can see all the advantages with a hybrid.

Mick F wrote: This day and age, it should all be automatically operated.

This day and age everything should be accessible on our phones, cars should waft along the road, things should function at the flick of a switch (or pass of an infrared beam) and life should be unutterably pleasant. The downside of this philosophy is a continent (North America) that is mired in absurd and juvenile expectations about life and their effect on the planet.

As I once suggested on a thread long ago, Christians shouldn't drive cars. To suffer is to know perhaps. That change of gear using a clutch is an extraordinary feat of invention and engineering saving a long and arduous walk: only a society on the verge of insanity would grumble that it is too irksome and that something easier should replace it.

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
Volvo XC 90 t8 I have seen one of those when I pulled into the car park one day.
That's a bit of a tank,
Someone thinks they're going to tow a lot of horseboxes?
Its the price of these things I find a Little alarming.
The depreciation from knew I would find a little bit depressing unless you intend to keep the car for half a lifetime.

My camper is a bit of an old thing but I like listening to the gearbox churning, Which can be heard even above the engine, transmission in front rather underneath, the gearbox is mounted at the rear, As a lover of motorbikes I like to hear the engine.
Yes I can see all the advantages with a hybrid.

95% of them are bought either by companies, or on PCP deals, so the retail price is all-but irrelevant.