Wild Camping? Ok that will be £20

[Tangled Metal]

I've had decades of wildcamping in the lakes. I've had chats with the farmer working the land I was camping on and he wasn't bothered. It's technically illegal in the lake district but there's been a long held local assumption that following the Scottish model with the addition of being above the intake wall then you've got effectively landowners permission. Unless the landowner decides for whatever reason he wants you off the land. You then just move on to another location and landowner.

It's been an informal situation for so long that I've never heard of someone being moved on among my contacts and friends in the area. Some places are pretty obvious too so if it's not allowed you'd be moved on.

I know popular locations half an hour brisk walk from a car parking spot. Some can be seen from the farm yard.

Why on earth would you pay £20 for wildcamping in a defined spot at a defined time and date?

I can wildcamp on areas I want to according to my progress on the walk at times and dates that suit me. Even last minute kip sites near out of the way pubs where some mates have met up. Beats trying to drive home possibly over the limit. Take your kit and leave your car on the side of the road (safely parked) and get a couple of days walk to work the alcohol out of your system.

[whoof]

Why on earth would you pay £20 for wildcamping in a defined spot at a defined time and date?

Paying £20 to be given a map reference and then told go map there reminds me of the old joke about buying Seagulls.
A man on the seafront with a sign 'Seagulls £5 each'. Someone pays him £5 and asks for his Seagull, man points at one flying by and says that one's yours.

[Thehairs1970]

I agree, and agree with the writer too.
It occurs to me that perhaps there could be a charge for car parking, but the self propelled go free.
I have always been keen on the clandestine camp, especially when I was on the dole. £20 is ridiculous.

I think there often is a charge for car parking. I live in Dartmoor (I know, hellish), and the car park at Princetown used to charge via an honesty box. In the last few years that changed to P&D. I guess because there was too little honesty. I think the Peak District charges too.

The problem is that many people avoid the car parks and park just off the road elsewhere.

Pay for wild camping? No thanks. But I know this national parks in the US charge for entry. Maybe that's what will happen here...

[jgurney]

I've had chats with the farmer working the land I was camping on and he wasn't bothered. It's technically illegal ... but there's been a long held local assumption that following the Scottish model with the addition of being above the intake wall then you've got effectively landowners permission. Unless the landowner decides for whatever reason he wants you off the land. You then just move on to another location and landowner. It's been an informal situation for so long that I've never heard of someone being moved on among my contacts and friends

I suspect these paid 'wild' pitches are not in that sort of remote moorland area but are in places where wild camping was not traditionally accepted. One of the areas where this is to be offered is the South Downs, which has no local tradition of tacitly allowing clean and quiet backpackers to pitch and move on next day. I wonder whether the Lake District locations involved are lower down and more accessible ones.

Why on earth would you pay £20 for wildcamping in a defined spot at a defined time and date?

Possibly a busy family wanting to take the kids doing something that feels adventurous and wanting to be sure that they can pitch at a known spot on a known day, as the possibility of having to hunt around for a pitch, perhaps for some time late in the evening, and the risk of getting moved on again, is too daunting. It seems to me that such people might as well just go to a straightforward camping site, but I suppose there will be some attracted by the idea of doing something that feels in some ways like wild camping, but without the risks. I wonder whether the £20 includes being able to park a car somewhere nearby, which might appeal to 'punters' like those I have described.

[PH]

I wish people would stop saying wild camping is illegal, other than the few places with by-laws it isn't. I'm not a lawyer, but this is my understanding of it - When camping without the landowners permission you are trespassing and that is a civil matter, if prosecuted (In reality sued) for trespass your liability is no more than to compensate for any losses (Financial, material or amenity) plus any costs awarded. If the landowner or their agent instruct you to move and you do not, that then becomes aggravated trespass which is a criminal offence and the police can be called.
If you camp without permission, cause no damage and have not been asked to leave, you have not broken any law, if you think this isn't accurate, please show me the law that's been broken.

What's being offered here is something else, I wish they'd found a different name for it, I can't see where it would fit in with my camping, but I know several people it would appeal to.

[jgurney]

I wish people would stop saying wild camping is illegal, ... it isn't.

It is, unless the landowner has given their consent, as it is a trespass.

When camping without the landowners permission you are trespassing and that is a civil matter,

Exactly, trespass is contrary to civil law, i.e. is illegal.

If you camp without permission, cause no damage and have not been asked to leave, you have not broken any law, if you think this isn't accurate, please show me the law that's been broken.

The law of trespass, like a lot of civil law, is common law (established by cases not statute). Key cases providing precedent for modern trespass practice include Ellis v Loftus Iron Co 1874 (even a trivial entry onto land is a trespass), River Wear Commissioners v Adamson 1877 (trespassers entering land by accident are generally still liable) and Scott v League against Cruel Sports 1986 (negligence as well as intent can create trespass).

[Gattonero]

This is in interesting subject. And I bet this suggestion came from a certain party?

Now, the main point is: what do you actually get for £20? A lot less than what a proper campsite will give you, so on what grounds this £20 is based, is beyond me!

In the real world, I think that as long as the cyclo-tourist or backpacker does obey to the outdoor access code, there is very little to worry for the landowners. Let's say it all: what trouble does give you the use of 3sqm of your 30 acre woodland or grass field?
I don't think that legalizing wild camping will get a surge of people infesting private land, nor will create a real loss for campsite owners (I believe that very little money is made from the one-night-basic-pitch tariff)

[Sweep]

deleted -topic moved on - i jumped in ahead.

[Sweep]

It sometimes seems that there is a conspiracy to make sure nothing is free, and everything comes with a charge.

yes.

and marketed as

"a package"

"an experience"

May return to topic later if more time.

[PH]

If you camp without permission, cause no damage and have not been asked to leave, you have not broken any law, if you think this isn't accurate, please show me the law that's been broken.

The law of trespass, like a lot of civil law, is common law (established by cases not statute). Key cases providing precedent for modern trespass practice include Ellis v Loftus Iron Co 1874 (even a trivial entry onto land is a trespass), River Wear Commissioners v Adamson 1877 (trespassers entering land by accident are generally still liable) and Scott v League against Cruel Sports 1986 (negligence as well as intent can create trespass).

Thanks, looked those up and made interesting reading, which in turn led to the recently published HoC briefing paper.

Trespass to land is not generally a criminal offence unless some special statutory provision makes it so. Any damage done by a trespasser while trespassing may amount to the offence of criminal damage.
In civil law, trespass to land consists of any unjustifiable intrusion by a person upon the land in possession of another. Civil trespass is actionable in the courts, but a claim must be brought by the owner of the land.

I was wrong that damage need to occur, it seems that trespass is different to other civil law in that respect.

In civil law, trespass to land consists of any unjustifiable intrusion by a person on the land in possession of another. It is actionable in the
courts whether or not the claimant has suffered any damage (unlike other causes of action in civil law). This reflects the fact that in the past
trespass was likely to lead to a breach of the peace.

Wrong in law, but not in practice

However in practice actions for trespass are not normally brought in the absence of damage unless the claimant wishes to deter persistent trespassing or there are disputes over boundaries or rights of way

There's nothing in that to make me change the way I camp, I'm committing no criminal offence and if the landowner instructs me to leave I shall do so, as they have suffered no loss I can't imagine the civil courts awarding any damages.

[Tangled Metal]

Wouldn't you be annoyed if you were that family passing £20 only to get to your pitch site to find it full of freeloaders taking advantage of the lake district's long held but unwritten practise of not giving a sh1t about wildcamping out of site above the intake wall.

Seriously, if anyone takes then up on this £20 deal in the lake district they're an idiot. Outdoor organisations such as the outward bounds go wild camping in the lakes without any landowner permissions. They're not one or two tents in the wilderness, they're six plus tents often camping in one spot like on a scout camp at a scout camping ground. I've seen the debris after they're camps before now.

Personally whatever the law is out matters not of nobody is going to bother enough to go out looking for you. Without enforcement the crime effectively doesn't exist. Like dangerous driving on the roads.

[Cyril Haearn]

Quite different from criminal driving
Wild camping harms no-one
What about toilets?

[Bmblbzzz]

Surely the socially deprived would be happier hanging around a subway sniffing glue and selling crack .... as they do here in Rotherham ...

I'm a low income worker, so is my wife. We also live on a council estate. I'm on a train getting ready to ride a 600k tomorrow, what are you doing mate? Thanks for making assumptions...

I think that he is being ironic.

The trouble with irony is that it allows people to say things seriously and then claim it was "irony". A variant on the dog whistle effect, like "banter". I'm not saying that landsurfer is not being ironic, but that he or she is falling into the trap of allowing this to happen (one I'll admit to having fallen into many times too).

[landsurfer]

Why don't you try reading all the posts before commenting .....
Thought i had apologised ....

[Bmblbzzz]

On the wild camping, while the £20 charge might be seen as a fee to access to the national park (a bit steep but... ), what really stops it being wild camping is being given a specific location.