Rohloff Oil - alternative

[pete75]

This is the same spec as Rohloff oil. ISO 12925-1 Type CKD 68 EP. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1L-Shell-Oma ... SwMBlcsHDn The flush is mainly white spirit with about 10% of the same oil.

This explains https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/forum/b ... sted=0&v=M

[PH]

I read the CG article last year, I'm still a little sceptical about the flushing oil being mostly white spirit, I mixed some up with Rohloff oil and it didn't look, feel or smell the same, it did evaporate off over a couple of days so I tried a sample of the genuine flushing oil which didn't in anything like the same way.
For the main oil, it could well be right, as the CG article says the idea that Rohloff oil is unique is highly unlikely. Yet the CG reports says a 14L drum of the equivalent cost $450 trade price, which is $30 a litre, yet the ebay link is someone selling an equivalent to the equivalent for £13 a litre, repackaged and posted. A real bargain or too good to be true? I don't know, but it'd be a braver man than me to find out.
In 2004 I invested about £35 in enough of the two oils for 20+ changes, I've just used the last and a further £46 will buy me enough for a further 15. The difference between the Rohloff and Ebay price is huge, the reality is it'll cost £3 a year or 30p.

[Ivor Tingting]

This is the same spec as Rohloff oil. ISO 12925-1 Type CKD 68 EP. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1L-Shell-Oma ... SwMBlcsHDn The flush is mainly white spirit with about 10% of the same oil.

This explains https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/forum/b ... sted=0&v=M

You want to save a couple of quid on buying some aftermarket oil which might or might not be the right specification for a hub that would cost you well over £1000 to replace including wheel build if your choice of oil/cleaning agent of unknown provenance buggers up your hub. Should it malfunction you would have to return it to Rohloff who would no doubt quickly establish that the incorrect oil or flushing liquid had been used. I know which oil and flushing cleaning fluid I would use and do. I bought 500ml of each of Rohloff's oil and cleaning agent when I bought my Rohloff hub. Enough to keep the hub running sweetly for a few miles.

[pete75]

I read the CG article last year, I'm still a little sceptical about the flushing oil being mostly white spirit, I mixed some up with Rohloff oil and it didn't look, feel or smell the same, it did evaporate off over a couple of days so I tried a sample of the genuine flushing oil which didn't in anything like the same way.
For the main oil, it could well be right, as the CG article says the idea that Rohloff oil is unique is highly unlikely. Yet the CG reports says a 14L drum of the equivalent cost $450 trade price, which is $30 a litre, yet the ebay link is someone selling an equivalent to the equivalent for £13 a litre, repackaged and posted. A real bargain or too good to be true? I don't know, but it'd be a braver man than me to find out.
In 2004 I invested about £35 in enough of the two oils for 20+ changes, I've just used the last and a further £46 will buy me enough for a further 15. The difference between the Rohloff and Ebay price is huge, the reality is it'll cost £3 a year or 30p.

Shell Omala is about 80 quid retail for a 20 litre drum. 20*13 is £260 so he's making a not unreasonable profit since it includes the cost of the container and postage.

[PH]

Shell Omala is about 80 quid retail for a 20 litre drum. 20*13 is £260 so he's making a not unreasonable profit since it includes the cost of the container and postage.

That's interesting. Is the Shell oil the exact equivalent of the Mobil one in the CG report? If so it begs the question why are they paying so much more for their oil than they need to. I don't have any reason to doubt any of this, I certainly don't claim any knowledge other than my Rohloff usage, but you can see how some of it simply doesn't make sense.

[pete75]

Shell Omala is about 80 quid retail for a 20 litre drum. 20*13 is £260 so he's making a not unreasonable profit since it includes the cost of the container and postage.

That's interesting. Is the Shell oil the exact equivalent of the Mobil one in the CG report? If so it begs the question why are they paying so much more for their oil than they need to. I don't have any reason to doubt any of this, I certainly don't claim any knowledge other than my Rohloff usage, but you can see how some of it simply doesn't make sense.

US Amazon has the Mobil oil at $231 for five gallons - about 20 litres. The Shell is to exactly the same spec. Prices in the UK and the USA are different - usually lower there but sometimes the other way round. ISO, Din, Jaso, SAE etc set standards for oil. Oils meeting a particular standard will have similar lubricating qualities.

[PH]

US Amazon has the Mobil oil at $231 for five gallons - about 20 litres. The Shell is to exactly the same spec. Prices in the UK and the USA are different - usually lower there but sometimes the other way round. ISO, Din, Jaso, SAE etc set standards for oil. Oils meeting a particular standard will have similar lubricating qualities.

OK, I'm going to have to remain puzzled by this - the same EBay seller has the Mobile oil at twice the price.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1L-Mobil-SHC ... .l4275.c10

[pete75]

US Amazon has the Mobil oil at $231 for five gallons - about 20 litres. The Shell is to exactly the same spec. Prices in the UK and the USA are different - usually lower there but sometimes the other way round. ISO, Din, Jaso, SAE etc set standards for oil. Oils meeting a particular standard will have similar lubricating qualities.

OK, I'm going to have to remain puzzled by this - the same EBay seller has the Mobile oil at twice the price.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1L-Mobil-SHC ... .l4275.c10

The Mobil is more expensive than the Shell to buy in a 20 litre drum so he has to charge more for it.

[PH]

The Mobil is more expensive than the Shell to buy in a 20 litre drum so he has to charge more for it.

I get that and I'm not criticising his re-selling, what I don't get is why people with enough understanding to know what they need from an oil are prepared to pay twice the price for one brand over another if they are the exact equivalent.
I pay 10x the price for Rohloff oil that may be the same as either of those, but the reasons I do have nothing to do with the specification.

[Brucey]

just because an oil meets a particular specification it doesn't mean that it is truly identical to another oil that meets the same specification, or that there won't be differences in the way they perform in any given application. It all depends how the specification is written exactly and how closely the test conditions in the specification match those seen in reality.

AFAICT ( I own and use a Rohloff which I've dismantled and repaired myself) there isn't anything that special inside a rohloff hub; a high film strength synthetic gear oil with EP additives ought to work pretty well as a lubricant. The seals are not in an unusual material, nor are the bearing cages; there are no odd metals present which might require a special additive, and the only other polymer parts of any significance are the shear pins; if these swell up (which they might in some oils) then the hub is going to be difficult to assemble. IME they swell a little even in the correct oil, and are easily replaced if needs be.

If the oil is much thicker and/or more plentiful than normal it will still make its way around the hub OK, but it may make the gear shifts a bit slower and at a higher fill there may be more seeping from the hub, and a tiny bit more drag inside it too. But if a little seeping is no big deal for you and you don't ride in sub-artic conditions and/or can cope with slightly slower gearshifts then these things may not worry you.

IMHO almost any reasonable quality gear oil ought to work OK, but does carry with it the spectre of warranty condition violation. If your hub seeps oil at all noticeably then it will probably run out of oil before the change is due, if you adhere to the current fill recommendations. I'd prefer to see different sealing arrangements in the driver bearings, a lubricant with better corrosion inhibitors in it and I don't see the harm in having some form of solid lubricant in it either. I also don't see the harm in using a carefully chosen SFG rather than an oil.

But I don't think the costs of using the rohloff supplied oil are very great or the benefits of doing something much different are likely to be that great either.

cheers

[geocycle]

The rohloff oil costs look high but the amount used means they last an awful long time and the actual cost is trivial in relation to the hub (and indeed other cycling paraphernalia). It used to be much worse when the choice was a single shot kit or a litre of the stuff, but now the quantities for sale are a bit more sensible. Definitely not worth losing the warranty. Similar arguments can be had around proofhide and Brooks saddles although the stakes are much lower in that example.

[pete75]

just because an oil meets a particular specification it doesn't mean that it is truly identical to another oil that meets the same specification, or that there won't be differences in the way they perform in any given application. It all depends how the specification is written exactly and how closely the test conditions in the specification match those seen in reality.



cheers

Most engine manufacturers specify a particular specification of oil. Some mention a specific brand others don't. Recommended brands are based more on commercial relationships than anything else. In most cases brand of oil matters little as long as the manufacturer honestly conforms to the spec.

[Brucey]

in this case the spec that the oil is thought to be made to is for a commercial gear oil and will this confer certain properties on any oil that meets it. However if the conditions in a Rohloff hub are different to that, the oil they use may only be suitable for use in the hub by virtue of the secondary characteristics of the oil. These may be characteristics that are not mentioned in the specification at all or that are greatly exceeded by the chosen oil, but not all other oils that meet that specification.

I think there are many oils that might provide adequate lubrication, but if you are worried about warranty violation, probably only the right stuff will do. FWIW I think Rohloff oil isn't made by either Mobil or Shell.

FWIW the thinning of said oil to make the flushing grade using 'white spirit' is ambiguous; the exact meaning of 'white spirit' varies quite a bit from one country to another.

cheers

[pete75]

in this case the spec that the oil is thought to be made to is for a commercial gear oil and will this confer certain properties on any oil that meets it. However if the conditions in a Rohloff hub are different to that, the oil they use may only be suitable for use in the hub by virtue of the secondary characteristics of the oil. These may be characteristics that are not mentioned in the specification at all or that are greatly exceeded by the chosen oil, but not all other oils that meet that specification.

I think there are many oils that might provide adequate lubrication, but if you are worried about warranty violation, probably only the right stuff will do. FWIW I think Rohloff oil isn't made by either Mobil or Shell.

FWIW the thinning of said oil to make the flushing grade using 'white spirit' is ambiguous; the exact meaning of 'white spirit' varies quite a bit from one country to another.

cheers

Doesn't really matter with my Rohloff it's over two years old so out of warranty. I very much doubt that nay oil manufacturer makes an oil specifically for Rohloff because of the very small quantities required. If it does need a very specific oil that nothing else uses and someone does make the small quantities required then the high price is justified. Rohloff oil will almost certainly be made by a German lubricant manufacturer.

[meandros]

The thing that worries me is the probability of the rohloff oil being inferior to what one can find in the market. I mean, the officially recommended oil change intervals are ludicrously short considering the gearbox does not experience the extreme temperatures and the torque levels an automobile does. That is to say that, unless your hub was under warranty, you could use a better alternative. There are many youtube clips of guys testing oils, one can get a pretty good idea of what's what. As much as I can tell, it seems the best oils on the market are ones from Amsoil, Mobil1 and maybe Motul. Any of their 100% synthetic gear oils would do the job much better. For the flusher, there are thinner oils that are formulated to do the job; as a tip, look into ATFs.
I recently stripped down a 2003 rohloff hub that had never seen any service or oil flush (as far as I could tell): the cog was firmly welded shut to the driver and the remaining oil was blackened and dirty. Amazingly, all the internal bits and pieces look good with minimal wear once they were cleaned and degreased. As Brucey writes, I reckon even a thicker lube would do nicely, such as a SFG mix. That would mean one would have to take the core out of the shell every time you'd have it relubed. On the other side, you could run the hub at way much longer servicing intervals than the official recommendation.