Hub gear spare parts suppliers

[Carlton green]

I have a Sach / Sram P5 five speed internal gear hub with back pedal brake that’s on my everyday bike. It’s been on the bike for a bit over a decade, was second hand when I got it from Germany and is used for say 500 miles per year. Maintenance is oil and thin grease injected into the hub via the hole in the shaft, etc.

This hub gear is absolutely great to to use but sadly they’re no longer made, when it dies I fear that I’ll have to revert to a standard five speed freewheel (120mm over locknuts in this old frame, don’t want to risk cold setting to 130 mm, etc). What I need to do is establish some comprehensive sources of spare parts. Any suggestions as to who might help please?

Thanks.

[Brucey]

SRAM no longer make any IGHs or spares for any IGH. Presently what retailers have in stock is likely to be it (*); AFAICT at least one UK wholesaler sold their remaining stock of parts a year or so ago. There were not that many takers, despite being very cheap; apparently the asking price for a five or seven speed internal was less than a fiver. The reason there weren't many takers is that these hubs tend to be reliable internally but the bits on the outside tend to fail. If this precipitates an internal failure too, it is unlikely to be a cost-effective repair.

In a coaster brake the brake shoes will eventually wear out; the good news is that (IIRC) the hub will work OK even without the brake shoes fitted at all, and if you can't replace the shoes you can fit a rim brake instead.

More good news is that e-bay is likely to furnish most parts you might (new or used) for some years to come.

More good news is that you can rework the hub internals to use SA shifters, toggle chains, and (modified) toggles. In some cases you need to use helper springs on the cable and to build a special pushrod for the left side of a 5s or 7s hub. The reworked hub will use a control each side, which is how the older 5/7s Sachs hubs were meant to work anyway. You can say goodbye to the daft nesting pushrods on the right side of the hub, the clickbox etc etc.

IME if you look after it, the hub internals are unlikely to wear out or break inside ten years at your kind of mileage. However the bits on the outside of the hub could go wrong before then.

Good selection of spare parts here

https://hollandbikeshop.com/en-gb/bicycle-wheels/hub-parts/sram-hub-parts/?page=1

(*) I think there will be third part manufacturers who will make the most common spare parts such as toggle chains and axle nuts. It seems extremely unlikely that others will step up and make other more complex internal parts though.

cheers

[interestedcp]

First, there are different variations/models of the Sram P5, but assuming it isn't a drum brake version, it probably is either is the "SRAM P5 MH5215" (produced until sep. 2005) or the "SRAM P5 MH5215 Spectro" (produced until sep. 2005).*
The production year and week ought to be marked on the hub flange.
In any case, it is a good idea to identify the variation you own and get the appropriate exploding parts diagram pdf file. Also get the diagram for the Sram S7 hub, since it shares parts with the P5.

There are a couple of German dealers that carry a wide selection of Sachs/Sram P5 parts like these:

https://www.daszweirad.de/shop/gx2/?cat ... H5215.html
https://www.retrobikefranken.de/de/sach ... 5-spectro/
https://www.kurbelix.de/fahrradteile/fa ... &n=40&s=29
(The last shop is the only one I have used personally).


*There are apparently also "from 2008" variants, but AFAIK they are either drum brake, "no brake" or "electric" (Sparc) variations.

As for stocking up, then that is difficult. For internal parts I would probably restrict it to bearings and perhaps brake shoes too. Perhaps cones if they show wear. The problem is that you can easily spend as much money as a new Shimano Inter-7 IGH costs on such spare parts, and still risk not being able to keep the hub running if e.g. the hub shell flange breaks.

[Carlton green]

My thanks for the responses so far, they are very helpful and have both confirmed my suspicions and given me information that was previously hidden to me (Google is wonderful but for some things it doesn’t give the needed results).

The Hub is a Sach’s Pentasport (just checked) I haven’t spotted the year of manufacture but now know where to look, thanks. I believe that it has a steel shell, so hopefully it’s robust then.

As noted with the price of spares it would be easy to buy bits for it, spend a fortune, and still end up without what was needed. I’m really not certain which parts wear though normally; in freewheel type hubs the cones and ball bearings need periodic replacement.

More broadly, apart from enthusiasts, the hub is near obsolete as spare parts are both not readily available and in diminishing supply. However I happen to have a spare hub, internal condition unknown, of the two control rod type. That hub was bought ages ago off of eBay, is ‘somewhere safe so just now I’m uncertain about the rest if it’s ‘pedigree’. However the spare is part of a plan ‘B’. I also have some SA Super Five bits somewhere, and think that there was some ‘overlap’ between the two - didn’t Sach borrow the SA design and then make it work.

I’d prefer not to run the hub into the ground but, instead, do a planned replacement at some point. As far as I know other than a SA product there is no 120mm OLD five speed replacement hub available, but a three speed might be. Really not certain about modern SA products, I had their Five speed hub years ago and it gave me a lot of problems. Just three speeds is workable but I’d prefer more so will probably resort to the wide range five speed freewheel block that used to be on the bike - I have some freewheel spares too. Anyway, though none are ideal, there are options.

Thank you again for the information shared. I’d be glad of any additional data from you and/or any other member.

[Brucey]

I also have some SA Super Five bits somewhere, and think that there was some ‘overlap’ between the two - didn’t Sach borrow the SA design and then make it work....

not really. You can use sprockets (of course) and just about force SA nuts onto a Sachs 10.5mm x 26tpi thread and that is about it.

cheers

[Carlton green]

Thank Brucey. I guess that I was being optimistic and hopeful rather than realistic. IIRC (which is in doubt) there was talk in the 1980’s of the two hubs being similar. Perhaps they were, to some extent, but Sach might also have been concerned about accusations of copying, etc., so made required differences to avoid that situation - Sach made the hub/design concept work too, but the SA didn’t work reliably for me.

I’m hopeful of a few more sources of parts supply and plan to keep the Sach going for a few years yet. For the longer term it’s back to the search for a simple and reliable multi speed transmission to fit into the available space (120 mm OLN). All suggestions and information gratefully received.

[Brucey]

presumably if you are considering a five speed freewheel as an alternative then you are not 100% stuck on a coaster brake. I think that you will be OK with your present hub (perhaps with spares that you source as required via the interweb) and that as you say it would be easy enough to sling a 5s freewheel in the bike if there was a major blow-up, pending other repairs. Its also worth mentioning that the frame could presumably be reset wider if the need arose, which opens up a lot of other possibilities.

Another factor relevant to choice of new hub with a view to later repair is expected service life. If your horizons extend (say) five years, you are reasonably sure of being able to buy spare parts as per those available currently. Ten years, hmmm, not so sure. Fifteen years, and you are unlikely to be much better off than if you bought an obsolete hub right now; there may not be good (new) spare parts availability.

One hopes that SA are not going to go bust and it seems extremely unlikely that shimano will. But SRAM haven't gone bust either and they have stopped making hub gears; (Fichtel &) Sachs were in business for over 100 years and it took something fairly drastic to put them out of business.

In Germany I might choose to run Sachs/SRAM hub gears because I'd expect every other bike shop to have a box of bits for them. For exactly the same reason I think that running a SA gear makes sense in this country. Arguably it makes more sense to run an older SA 5s gear than a newer one. For example (IME) using parts from FG, FW, S5, S5-1, S5-2 hubs (amongst others) it is possible to build a hub that is intrinsically as reliable as an AW three speed, but that has five gears. I have put ~70000 miles on one such and eventually the axle broke. I replaced the axle and carried on.

FWIW I am hesitant to suggest another coaster brake if you are thinking very long-term; IME a coaster brake introduces wear debris inside the hub (although a policy of regular doses of oil will tend to flush it out), causes much higher loads to be seen on the LH hub bearing, prohibits the use of contact seals on the LH side of the hub, and can be the direct cause of a major (hub-killing) blow-up. Sure, other brakes have their issues too, but they are easier to deal with should they give trouble, and the type of trouble is usually less serious when it does occur.

If you do choose another coaster brake there are considerations; for example choosing the SRAM 7s coaster is arguably less of a risk than many others; IIRC most of the parts are common with the non-coaster version. By contrast a Nexus 7 coaster brake uses quite a few parts which are specfic to the coaster brake, and there are many different versions of it. Having said that, in rim/roller brake N7 hubs (again there are many versions) it is possible to swap a recent internal into a very old N7 hubshell; I've not checked this but the same may be true of the coaster versions too.

cheers

[interestedcp]

The Hub is a Sach’s Pentasport (just checked) I haven’t spotted the year of manufacture but now know where to look, thanks. I believe that it has a steel shell, so hopefully it’s robust then.

Oh, so it is a Pentasport. While the Pentasport is often labeled Sram/P5, its proper name is I believe; "Sachs Torpedo Pentasport type H5111" (model number for coaster brake). (I believe there is a dual and single bowden cable variation).
While it has been out of production for quite some time, it is still possible to get spare parts for it. It shares several internal parts with the later P5 Spectro and S7 models which help with availability.

For old Sachs (Fichtel & Sachs) hubs, the guy behind the site: "Scheunenfun" is a good source for Pentasport spare parts, including hub shells.
The site is a bit old fashioned html, but it does contain lots of info like service manuals, part lists spec sheets etc. in PDF form:
http://www.scheunenfun.de/
To the Pentasport spare parts page:
http://www.scheunenfun.de/f+s_h5111.htm
Info page:
http://www.scheunenfun.de/explosionszeichnung.htm#h5111

As for an alternative; What about an almost modern NOS Sram P5 Spectro hub for only 75 Euro:-)
https://www.retrobikefranken.de/en/sram ... speed.html

[Carlton green]

Hi Brucey,

Some very helpful information, thank you. I’ll try to answer your points.

Yes, you’re correct, I’m not 100% stuck on a coaster brake. The coaster brake part of the hub was just how things turned out but, from my riding experience, it’s been a bonus - three brakes are better than one and ones effectively what one has when one’s rear rim is covered with oil.

After the supply of information here I believe that I’ll be OK with the present hub (perhaps with spares that are sourced as required via the interweb) and it might be easy enough to sling a 5s freewheel in the bike if there was a major blow-up, etc.

I believe that, in principle, the frame could be reset wider if the need arose. However theory and practice don’t always match (next time I’m going to a frame builder and I’m glad it was only a knackered old bike) so a lower risk route is preferred.

In my choices ideal service life is measured in decades, certainly five years and upwards. To my way of thinking ‘upgrading’ every five years or less isn’t sensible and I prefer to buy stuff that’s durable and then set it up to match my preferences. The problem with that idea is that not many manufactures like it and spares can become an issue ......

I follow what you say about country of manufacture and residual supplies of spares. If I lived in Germany or even just spoke a bit of the language then that would significantly alter the availability of Sach spares to me (I think). In the U.K. SA is the alternative and I see why you made that choice.

The concept of running a ‘sorted’ SA 5 gear appeals to me and your 70,000 miles on a hub is the right direction for me. However how one selects and sorts a suitable SA 5 gear is well outside my knowledge base. However I’d like to keep that route in mind as an option so would be very interested in more details please, is there a suitable thread you could refer me to, etc.?

Many thanks for the pointers so far.

[Carlton green]

Hi Interestedcp,

Many thanks for those details.

Looking at one of the suggested sites this looks virtually identical to my wheel, but I use a trigger thumb changer rather than a twist grip.
https://www.retrobikefranken.de/en/Hub- ... e-set.html

[Brucey]

re making a good SA 5s hub;

You can start with any of the hubs I mentioned earlier and

a) convert the RHS control to AW specification including the toggle key
b) make sure you have a 5s type secondary (large) sun pinion (rather than a 4s type one)
c) configure the springs so that the sun pinions are sprung leftwards (not rightwards)
d) make and fit a pushrod to the left side of the hub to control the sun pinions.
e) fit a 'helper spring' to the LH gear cable if required.

The pushrod you need for the left side is a simple L shape with the chain from a standard pull toggle riveted to it. The chain needs to be looped behind a dropout so that the final section runs parallel to the axle. Thus pulling on the cable forces the control rod into the hub. This arrangement is much simpler and more reliable than either a bell-crank for the pushrod, or any of the spring configurations which SA came up with so that the LH control would be a pull-chain.

Without the LH control fitted you have a medium range 3s hub, almost as simple and as strong as an AW hub, but actually the middle three gears of the 5s. With the LH control fitted you have access to first gear and fifth gear as well. The helper spring is sometimes required if the cable is a bit draggy. The springs in the hub will shift the pinions correctly, but are not always strong enough to overcome a draggy cable as well.

The only other thing you need to worry about is that the planet pinions are timed correctly (as you do in Sachs 5s/7s hubs as well). The marks are pretty clear, so it isn't difficult to do. Overall if you can rebuild a 3s hub, making a reliable 5s hub is only a little bit more complicated than that.

cheers

[Carlton green]

Thanks Brucey, a route forward.

Digging around I found this Sturmey Archer thread which might be a help to someone else: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=128331&hilit=Sturmey+archer+5+gear

[Brucey]

Digging around I found this Sturmey Archer thread which might be a help to someone else: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=128331&hilit=Sturmey+archer+5+gear

that thread is all about single-toggle 5s (W) hubs. These are also obsolete now (i.e. not listed by SA and - I think- only sold new any more as NOS). You can buy spare parts at present but who knows for how much longer? They were 'only' in production for about six or seven years.

cheers