Helmets

While encouraging the right to choose should the ctc recomend helmet wearing?

Poll ended at 22 May 2008, 12:15am

Yes
15
35%
No
28
65%
 
Total votes: 43

drossall
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Post by drossall »

david143 wrote:So why isn't the government along with all interested parties agreeing on the usefulness, or at least working together to get the answers?


To some extent they are, but the answer is messier than most people want it to be. Of course, it's not just a UK issue, so it's not right to look to the UK government to solve it alone.

Research is mostly done by scientists, medics and road-safety specialists. Science collects evidence, rather than creating proof. It's quite normal for the evidence to be contradictory. What you look for, of course, is for the overwhelming weight of evidence to point in one direction.

In very broad terms, helmet studies are of two main types. Hospital studies look at the injuries suffered by cyclists coming through the doors, and compare them according to whether or not a helmet was worn. These studies tend to come out in favour of helmets. However, they suffer from the "problem" that cyclist head injuries are actually quite rare, making it difficult to get statistically-significant samples. A second issue is the nature of "head injuries", which can mean abrasions that are not in any way life-threatening.

The better studies also compare the severity of other injuries, in order to have some degree of confidence that the two groups actually suffered similar crashes. One early study, still much-cited, totally failed to do this, and turned out to be comparing rich, helmetted kids riding off-road with poor, unhelmetted ones playing on the streets. Guess which group wasn't at risk from cars...

Population studies look at casualty rates across populations before and after helmets became widespread or compulsory. In broad terms, these fail to show any noticeable benefit from helmets. Some analyses show that trends worsened when helmets were worn. One method used is to compare trends in pedestrians and cyclists, which can be shown to tend to behave similarly - until helmets are introduced for cyclists, when things tend to get comparatively worse for the riders. These studies suffer from the problem that you have to adjust for changing cyclist numbers and mileage in order to figure out whether a drop was caused by reduced risk or reduced exposure. There is a lack of really robust figures for numbers and mileage, making the calculations imprecise.

In the face of this contradiction, most people revert to "common sense", which you can certainly respect when it means deciding individually to wear a helmet. However, it doesn't seem such a secure basis for talking of compulsion, given the above. Remember that reversals in road-safety policy have happened before; we used to make roads wider and straighter to improve safety, but now we are making them narrower and trickier again for the same reason. No-one thought it desirable to wait for the evidence, you see...

In particular, since the one effect of helmet promotion that does seem to be demonstrable is large falls in levels of cycling, promotion/compulsion on dubious grounds seems unwise. Add that to the tendency for everyone to focus on helmets to the exclusion of more important measures, and you have real problems. How often do you hear "Had he had cycle training?" when someone has a bike accident? No, it's always helmets, even when it wasn't the head that got hurt :?

The falls in cycling levels happen, of course, because people aren't daft. If you tell them they need a helmet to go cycling, they hear "Cycling is dangerous", and don't bother. That definitely increases their risk substantially on average, since the life expectancy benefits of cycling outweigh the risks by about 20:1, and whether you wear a helmet doesn't obviously make much difference to this either way.

Sorry for the essay :oops:
aurial

Post by aurial »

If a helmet can dissipate a significant portion of the energy which would otherwise have impacted on my scull in an accident without causing me worse injuries eleswhere then I will wear one. The minimum standard ensures at least some enegy dissipation. If someone comes up with evidence to the contrary then I will reconsider.

I will not be able to care about population statistics or cyclist numbers if it is my familly who are left to care for my brain damaged body until it dies.
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hubgearfreak
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Post by hubgearfreak »

aurial wrote:If a helmet can....... then I will wear one.


go ahead. it's your choice. not a single none helmeted person tries to stop you :D

but just out of curiosity, is that just for cycling, or do you wear it on the bus, when walking and when driving?
david143
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Joined: 11 May 2008, 9:37am

Post by david143 »

hubgearfreak wrote:
aurial wrote:If a helmet can....... then I will wear one.


go ahead. it's your choice. not a single none helmeted person tries to stop you :D

but just out of curiosity, is that just for cycling, or do you wear it on the bus, when walking and when driving?


This type of questioning makes no sense to me. When I cycle I get up to anything over 40mph. Suggest that coming off at that sort of speed is anything like tripping over while walking and I fail to see any argument.

There are 2 questions being lumped together here, and everywhere else.

Q1. are helmets safer
Q2. should they be made compulsory if they are.

Why can't we have the answer to Q1 please. If others don't wish to wear a helmet, thats ok. However, I do want to know if it is safer without the politics, and I also would like to see Government involved in raising helmet standards.

The answer to Q2 is a separate matter.
drossall
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Location: North Hertfordshire

Post by drossall »

david143 wrote:This type of questioning makes no sense to me. When I cycle I get up to anything over 40mph. Suggest that coming off at that sort of speed is anything like tripping over while walking and I fail to see any argument.


Well, in terms of impact velocity towards the ground, it's almost exactly the same - that's basic physics.

Of course it's not, because you are travelling forward, so if you hit a tree or a car the forces will be quite different, and even hitting the ground you'll bounce and roll, and get abrasions and so on that you wouldn't in a straight vertical fall.

That's where concerns over rotational forces on the head, and whether helmets make them worse, come in. And that is one of the explanations offered for the failure to produce an improvement in population-level statistics.

In other words, all the people who argue that you are better with protection on your head in a straight impact are probably right. What is not so clear is how much that has to do with what actually happens in a crash.

Wikipedia is quite good on this.
david143
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Post by david143 »

drossall wrote:
david143 wrote:This type of questioning makes no sense to me. When I cycle I get up to anything over 40mph. Suggest that coming off at that sort of speed is anything like tripping over while walking and I fail to see any argument.


Well, in terms of impact velocity towards the ground, it's almost exactly the same - that's basic physics.

Of course it's not, because you are travelling forward, so if you hit a tree or a car the forces will be quite different, and even hitting the ground you'll bounce and roll, and get abrasions and so on that you wouldn't in a straight vertical fall.

That's where concerns over rotational forces on the head, and whether helmets make them worse, come in. And that is one of the explanations offered for the failure to produce an improvement in population-level statistics.

In other words, all the people who argue that you are better with protection on your head in a straight impact are probably right. What is not so clear is how much that has to do with what actually happens in a crash.

Wikipedia is quite good on this.


This is why I want to know. I don't care about the compulsion arguments at all. I just want to have the information available for me to be able to make the best decision for me.
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Cunobelin
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Post by Cunobelin »

In very broad terms, helmet studies are of two main types. Hospital studies look at the injuries suffered by cyclists coming through the doors, and compare them according to whether or not a helmet was worn. These studies tend to come out in favour of helmets. However, they suffer from the "problem" that cyclist head injuries are actually quite rare, making it difficult to get statistically-significant samples. A second issue is the nature of "head injuries", which can mean abrasions that are not in any way life-threatening.


Which brings up another source of concern - motive.

It is a fact that in hospital admissions, cyclists are very rare compared to some groups.

Male pedestrians over 65 suffer more head injuries than ALL groups of Cyclists!

SO the question is if these MPs and organisations like BHIT are genuinely interested in reducing head injuries and hence an increase in public health then why are they so keen on a minority group. Far greater gains in head injury reduction and the burden on individuals and society with introducing helmets for pedestrians, especially the older ones.

Especially when the greater percentage of these injuries would be within the designed performance range of cycle helmets. It could be safely suggested that the efficiency of helmets would be greater in pedestrians!

Additionally the effect of even minor injuries is even greater in elderly pedestrians leading often to loss of confidence, and a withdrawal form outside activities causing them to be housebound.

Finally - Every single pro-helmet argument applies with equal or greater validity to elderly pedestrians than to cyclists!


It's a bit like treating arthritis in children and ignoring the need to treat the elderly!

Unless of course it is simply a case of transferring the blame:

"I know I just pulled out in front of you, and knocked you off - but the injuries are your own fault you know - if you had been wearing body armour and a helmet you would have been alright!"

I can now drive off safe in denial, knowing that it is entirely the cyclist's fault that they are injured!


The motoring lobby are so keen on this because of exactly this reason - it transfers the responsibility from avoiding the action to protecting yourself when the accident happens!

Can anyone give a good reason why elderly pedestrians should not wear helmets?
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Cunobelin
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Post by Cunobelin »

Cunobelin wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:Image

:oops: :cry: :oops: :cry:

I am republishing my bus pass pic to remind you that I am an elderly cyclist. It's bad enough feeling obliged to wear a helmet when cycling - I'd feel even sillier wearing one on the bus :oops: :cry: :oops: :cry:

(There's only the indexed linked pension to keep me going :lol: )


OK - I'll exempt you!


Sorry - you're going to have to wear that helmet after all!

(I'm not being personal here)
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bovlomov
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Post by bovlomov »

drossall wrote:...
The falls in cycling levels happen, of course, because people aren't daft. If you tell them they need a helmet to go cycling, they hear "Cycling is dangerous", and don't bother. That definitely increases their risk substantially on average, since the life expectancy benefits of cycling outweigh the risks by about 20:1, and whether you wear a helmet doesn't obviously make much difference to this either way.

Sorry for the essay :oops:


It's a very good essay!

This last bit is the most crucial, but no one seems to be taking any notice.

The helmet argument is just a sideshow. Even if there was any comprehensive, irrefutable research, it wouldn't challenge the fact that - as you put it - 'whether you wear a helmet doesn't obviously make much difference to this either way'.

Let's tackle the helmet debate, but only when we've dealt with cars, smoking, sugar, fat, uneven pavements, knives, guns, kitchen accidents, falling cranes, falling trees, slippery floors, high heels, pesticides, nuclear waste, GM crops, drug side-effects, hospital errors, errr... and war!
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hubgearfreak
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Post by hubgearfreak »

david143 wrote:When I cycle I get up to anything over 40mph. Suggest that coming off at that sort of speed is anything like tripping over while walking and I fail to see any argument.


so wear a motorbike helmet at your cycling speeds, and a bicycle helmet for walking speeds.
david143
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Joined: 11 May 2008, 9:37am

Post by david143 »

hubgearfreak wrote:
david143 wrote:When I cycle I get up to anything over 40mph. Suggest that coming off at that sort of speed is anything like tripping over while walking and I fail to see any argument.


so wear a motorbike helmet at your cycling speeds, and a bicycle helmet for walking speeds.


I want a cycle helmet because it provides the airflow I need. However, I do want a helmet designed to withstand more than a fall at 12mph or less. I don't think that is unreasonable.
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Simon L6
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Post by Simon L6 »

I think that the discussion demonstrates the futility of the argument, and that it is an argument that the CTC should involve itself in as little as possible.

The problem is this - certain sections of the gutter press - ironically those sections most likely to complain about the nanny state - have got it into their heads that helmets are good. Correction - they've got it into their heads that advocating control measures for cyclists is going to sell newspapers to the morons they depend on for their daily bread. It really is no different from teenage mothers (sterilise 'em!), foreigners (kill 'em for their own good) and hoodies (kill 'em, but this time for fun). It says a lot more about the kind of public school that these people went to (I was there too, by the way) than it does about life.

The CTC seeks to displace some of this prejudice by reasoned argument. It is, frankly, a waste of effort. It wasn't a waste of effort making the same arguments to civil servants when the Highway Code was being drafted and re-drafted because, whatever we think of civil servants, there is within the DfT a general recognition that cycling is a thoroughly good thing. Making the argument on a wider stage is simply not going to affect the tabloid/Radio Bloke agenda, which is and always will be that cyclists are the unknowable other, more free than those in tin cans, and, therefore they must be regulated. On further reflection we're a lot closer to teenage mums than I'd realised hitherto.

Whatever you believe about the benefit of wearing a helmet, this thread has shown that people aren't generally persuaded. I was persuaded when I came off at 25mph and put a seven inch crack in my pelvis and a seven inch crack in my helmet. That, even the most sceptical of helmet shunners might agree, is an effective means of persuasion, if slightly too radical, and expensive, for general application. My wife, who had begged me to wear a helmet, who picked me up from the hospital, who nursed me through nine weeks on crutches (scrub the last one, she pushed off to the US to tour with Paul O'Grady, leaving me to look after the kid on my own) now refuses to wear a helmet because it makes a mess of her hair. Again, you will take my point. We're not, as a species, easily persuaded.

So my view is that it's all a lot of hot air. You wear a helmet or not, depending on who you are.
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Simon L6
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Post by Simon L6 »

Oh - and David. The helmet that saved my skull, if not my brain was the Met 'Bad Boy'. And it's cool in summer - partly because the top is silver rather than black.
david143
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Post by david143 »

Cunobelin wrote:
In very broad terms, helmet studies are of two main types. Hospital studies look at the injuries suffered by cyclists coming through the doors, and compare them according to whether or not a helmet was worn. These studies tend to come out in favour of helmets. However, they suffer from the "problem" that cyclist head injuries are actually quite rare, making it difficult to get statistically-significant samples. A second issue is the nature of "head injuries", which can mean abrasions that are not in any way life-threatening.


Which brings up another source of concern - motive.

It is a fact that in hospital admissions, cyclists are very rare compared to some groups.

Male pedestrians over 65 suffer more head injuries than ALL groups of Cyclists!

SO the question is if these MPs and organisations like BHIT are genuinely interested in reducing head injuries and hence an increase in public health then why are they so keen on a minority group. Far greater gains in head injury reduction and the burden on individuals and society with introducing helmets for pedestrians, especially the older ones.

Especially when the greater percentage of these injuries would be within the designed performance range of cycle helmets. It could be safely suggested that the efficiency of helmets would be greater in pedestrians!

Additionally the effect of even minor injuries is even greater in elderly pedestrians leading often to loss of confidence, and a withdrawal form outside activities causing them to be housebound.

Finally - Every single pro-helmet argument applies with equal or greater validity to elderly pedestrians than to cyclists!


It's a bit like treating arthritis in children and ignoring the need to treat the elderly!

Unless of course it is simply a case of transferring the blame:

"I know I just pulled out in front of you, and knocked you off - but the injuries are your own fault you know - if you had been wearing body armour and a helmet you would have been alright!"

I can now drive off safe in denial, knowing that it is entirely the cyclist's fault that they are injured!


The motoring lobby are so keen on this because of exactly this reason - it transfers the responsibility from avoiding the action to protecting yourself when the accident happens!

Can anyone give a good reason why elderly pedestrians should not wear helmets?


You are raising separate issues with walkers, motorists, the elderly, or any other group. I am not talking about any of those here. None of which have anything to do with cycle helmets being safer or not.
reohn2

Post by reohn2 »

The only thing we need to remember is :-

If you think a helmet will save your skull then wear one

If you don't think a helmet will save your skull don't wear one.

If the government want compulsion fight tooth and nail against it.

How it gets to five pages yet again beggers belief IMO
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