Mick F wrote: 13 Sep 2022, 10:20am
Just looking to renew my passport and went to the Gov.UK website.
I was very much amused by the fact that their logo has a queen's crown and not a king's one!
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Actually the Queen got coronated with the St Edwards crown from 1661. Built for Charles II. A King's and Queens crown and the one in the UK gov site. If in doubt compare with this link.
She then wears the imperial state crown built for King George VI and wears it for state occasions. But it is the St Edward's crown that's considered the most important crown.
The scheduled programme on BBC 4 at 19.00 tonight has been scrapped.
It was to have been about the royal art collection. So was last night's about the collection.. They were the only royal-related programmes I wanted to watch. Why on earth...?
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
pwa wrote: 13 Sep 2022, 5:30pm
There are some complex issues to consider here. Anyone should be able to express an opinion about the rightness or otherwise of our constitution. I happily proclaim myself to be republican and urge others to consider being so. But at a time of mourning, and in the vicinity of public expression of mourning, protest could be provocative, and even aggressive. It is possible to be aggressive through psychological means as well a physically. Protesting against monarchy in the presence of mourning for a dead monarch could be seen as psychological aggression, with the intention of causing distress. There is nothing peaceful about that sort of protest. It is nasty. But if it is an offence, what sort, and whichever sort it is, it is relatively minor and should be dealt with as such.
ISWYM,but all protest is disruptive and psychological is it not,climate change protestors and striking rail workers are two current examples which could be argued to never be at the right time?
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
pwa wrote: 13 Sep 2022, 5:30pm
There are some complex issues to consider here. Anyone should be able to express an opinion about the rightness or otherwise of our constitution. I happily proclaim myself to be republican and urge others to consider being so. But at a time of mourning, and in the vicinity of public expression of mourning, protest could be provocative, and even aggressive. It is possible to be aggressive through psychological means as well a physically. Protesting against monarchy in the presence of mourning for a dead monarch could be seen as psychological aggression, with the intention of causing distress. There is nothing peaceful about that sort of protest. It is nasty. But if it is an offence, what sort, and whichever sort it is, it is relatively minor and should be dealt with as such.
ISWYM,but all protest is disruptive and psychological is it not,climate change protestors and striking rail workers are two current examples which could be argued to never be at the right time?
Anyone should be free to express views about monarchy, but doing that in the vicinity of the coffin, at a time of mourning, is bound to upset people, and I would say it is intended to do so. Freedom of speech is important, but it is not the only important right that we have, and sometimes it should take second place to other rights. Now is not the time, and events to do with mourning are not the place. A coronation will be another matter.
It's too late to protest when the change over has already happened. But it's a significant time to protest, when the audience is wider such as in the background to the coffin being driven past.
However rights legislation do not specify what is an acceptable time to protest. We have to assume any time is OK but accept that it might not be and it's the untrained police officer seemingly appointed to decide. Isn't that a good idea? lol
Interesting bit from New Statesman about the threats to free speech and balance in reporting (e.g. BBC requirement for "balance)
https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2022/09/the-right-wing-press-were-dismayed-by-the-lack-of-dissent-from-the-royalist-consensus wrote:It’s the “woke” liberal elite that threatens free speech, we are perpetually told. Those who hold traditional, patriotic views are allegedly bullied into silence. But try expressing republican opinions in the wake of Elizabeth II’s death. Polls suggest that about 20 per cent of Britons want to abolish the monarchy but, as TV, radio and newspapers found innumerable voices to praise (or, in most cases, adulate) both Elizabeth and her successor, Charles III, dissenters struggled to get even a 0.001 per cent share of the coverage.
pwa wrote: 13 Sep 2022, 5:30pm
There are some complex issues to consider here. Anyone should be able to express an opinion about the rightness or otherwise of our constitution. I happily proclaim myself to be republican and urge others to consider being so. But at a time of mourning, and in the vicinity of public expression of mourning, protest could be provocative, and even aggressive. It is possible to be aggressive through psychological means as well a physically. Protesting against monarchy in the presence of mourning for a dead monarch could be seen as psychological aggression, with the intention of causing distress. There is nothing peaceful about that sort of protest. It is nasty. But if it is an offence, what sort, and whichever sort it is, it is relatively minor and should be dealt with as such.
ISWYM,but all protest is disruptive and psychological is it not,climate change protestors and striking rail workers are two current examples which could be argued to never be at the right time?
Anyone should be free to express views about monarchy, but doing that in the vicinity of the coffin, at a time of mourning, is bound to upset people, and I would say it is intended to do so. Freedom of speech is important, but it is not the only important right that we have, and sometimes it should take second place to other rights. Now is not the time, and events to do with mourning are not the place. A coronation will be another matter.
The entire coverage is propaganda and censorship of the highest order. 20% of the population does not support a monarchic system, but from what little I have heard/seen/read sure isn't 1 in 5 questioning the status quo.
The speed of the queen is dead, long live the king, with massive amounts of expensive pomp and pageantry, is pure deception. It was the perfect opportunity to consider and question the past structures. Gone.
A new head of state based on hereditary. A symbol of all that is wrong with England and its colonies in these islands.
The old older changeth yielding place to …. the old order.
As Tennyson didn’t write.
This moment was never going to be a moment of change, it was always going to be about baton-passing and reaffirmation, but I admit that I’ve been amazed by the sheer weight that is being brought to bear on the reaffirmation, we really are being thumped over the head with it. Maybe it’s simply that modern 24/7 ‘news media’ enable it, or maybe if we looked at the newspapers that were published between the Old King’s death and funeral, and listened to what was on the wireless, we might find that it was equally ‘blanket’.
You certainly get the feeling that questioning it all is unwelcome, and the powers that be want none of us to be in any doubt that this is how it is, and this is how it will be, presumably because the powers that be fear that it could become a moment if change of not managed firmly. My take is that if that is their concern, they’ve overestimated the republican feeling in the country.
The time to argue against monarchy is before the monarch dies so that there's a time to change to the new before you get the issue of a royal funeral with all that pomp and respect thing going on. How many of those 70 years were you alive and not arguing so strongly against it or for a Republic on here as strongly as now? Or is it a recent conversion due to the events this week?
Djnotts. You can answer if you want though, I must admit I have just been fully converted to ending constitutional monarchy. For me it's the arrests over protests. I didn't like it. Everyone should be able to protest even if it causes offence if all that expense is wasted on a funeral and outdated feudal pageantry.
"How many of those 70 years were you alive and not arguing so strongly against it or for a Republic on here as strongly as now? Or is it a recent conversion due to the events this week?"
I was born before Elizabeth inherited. I have been generally "against" since about 15 - indeed I was seriously threatened with expulsion for not standing for the national anthem at school. I have always been a "socialist" for want of an easier description.
However, I don't read what I have said as promoting abolition per se nor in a vacuum, rather national debate and discussion. I would not support a change without knowing what the replacement might be.
This week's events have not altered my opinions either way.
djnotts wrote: 14 Sep 2022, 7:39pm
The entire coverage is propaganda and censorship of the highest order. 20% of the population does not support a monarchic system, but from what little I have heard/seen/read sure isn't 1 in 5 questioning the status quo.
The speed of the queen is dead, long live the king, with massive amounts of expensive pomp and pageantry, is pure deception. It was the perfect opportunity to consider and question the past structures. Gone.
A new head of state based on hereditary. A symbol of all that is wrong with England and its colonies in these islands.
I agree though from what I've seen C4 news are raising some negative aspects (I've not analysed airtime for +ve vs -ve). e.g. they have a reporter in Jamaica (?) raising them looking to remove the British Royalty from being their head of state; this evening covering the Cost of Living crisis they were interviewing somebody pawning their engagement ring and raised the Royal Parades on TV in the background and got polite but negative comments about Royal wealth when so many are more than struggling.
reohn2 wrote: 14 Sep 2022, 7:55am
ISWYM,but all protest is disruptive and psychological is it not,climate change protestors and striking rail workers are two current examples which could be argued to never be at the right time?
Anyone should be free to express views about monarchy, but doing that in the vicinity of the coffin, at a time of mourning, is bound to upset people, and I would say it is intended to do so. Freedom of speech is important, but it is not the only important right that we have, and sometimes it should take second place to other rights. Now is not the time, and events to do with mourning are not the place. A coronation will be another matter.
I confess that I have only listened to the first three minutes where the bloke outlines what he said, and why. He seems like a very reasonable and nice man who made a very good and valid point and didn't intend offence, so I think that (if he tells it exactly as it was) the police response was heavy handed. I also think he would have been better advised to have saved his opinions until after the funeral, possibly until the run-up to the coronation, when the issues to do with the loss of the Queen, and the accession of the King, would be more clearly separated in people's minds. I feel like I would like to explain that to him because he seems like someone capable of listening and seeing things from another angle. I actually share his dislike of the concept of hereditary monarchy, but I would not shout out my views amid crowds assembled partly to show their collective grief at the Queen's death. It is provocative. I'd save those views until people are in a better place, emotionally, to receive them.
lol