Education

[Carlton green]

To further feed his prejudices I went to Leeds - a dumbed down, red brick university.

Gosh, when I was a Lad it was the clever posh ones that went to Leeds - sadly that’s actually the truth and I would never have got in there.

Colleges of Arts and Technology were wonderful places where learning happened in conjunction with employment, in our national stupidity we virtually destroyed all of that and instead now send our young off to University instead. Universities were, of course, wonderful institutions but the bulk of students who go to them now would (IMHO) learn more and be financially better off by following the old ‘day release’ routes.

[reohn2]

Long, boring discussion <snip>

I think the phrase R2 wanted read everyone should be treated as equals not equally. You can't really treat people equally and expect the best out of them. Some will always need more help, others less.

You can treat people as equals in that they are of equal worth and deserve equal chance at achieving their best. All very much idealistic though that is.

Thanks,that's exactly what I meant,and I don't see any wrong in idealic aims especially in education.

[Tangled Metal]

Long, boring discussion <snip>

I think the phrase R2 wanted read everyone should be treated as equals not equally. You can't really treat people equally and expect the best out of them. Some will always need more help, others less.

You can treat people as equals in that they are of equal worth and deserve equal chance at achieving their best. All very much idealistic though that is.

Thanks,that's exactly what I meant,and I don't see any wrong in idealic aims especially in education.

Of course there's nothing wrong. It just costs more and wouldn't suit the ideology of everyone in politics.

For example grammar schools got the most out of some kids not others. So you close them down to help some but fail others. Not sure how true that is.

I went to an independent grammar school that kept it's grammar school practises with the support of parents and governors when the local council tried to close it. That school remained one of the most highly ranked school in Northern Britain at the time but only by being the grammar school.

Later on it became more about who has the money to pay the fees with a few scholarships. No longer taking the brightest in the area. I myself was even living out of the old catchment area. Mind you there was another decent school nearer to me that used to be a grammar school that if still one I'd have got into it. I couldn't go there because it was a c of e school that only took kids from my area with a vicar's letter saying it were a regular church goer.

My point is no system works for everyone. There will be losers and winners in any system. If only you could tailor make education to the individual. Home schooling might work to some point if the parents are able and bright enough but not really high school level I think. Although I do know of a family that home schools their kids. One is close to my sons age. She's bright as a button. My son is bright but she is too but in a different way.

With education I am a firm believer that the biggest influence on a child's education is the support the parents / parent gives. Creating a home where learning is supported and clearly shown to be important really helps. I know kids whose parents never read to or got their kids to read books and it really shows.

One kid is clearly a clever kid but he's behind the curve in his education. The main car giving parent doesn't encourage him to read because most of her family can't read anyway. Plus he doesn't want to read and she doesn't want to make him. Other kids are almost reading at a level a year in advance their parents read with the kids at least half an hour per night. For them reading is a part of life, like in our house.

This goes straight through school. It's partly about teaching a love for learning.

I always think that education has more importance to those in developing countries. Even in the past in the UK education seemed important to more of the population than now. Perhaps that's unfair and untrue.

[pete75]

To further feed his prejudices I went to Leeds - a dumbed down, red brick university.

Gosh, when I was a Lad it was the clever posh ones that went to Leeds - sadly that’s actually the truth and I would never have got in there.

Colleges of Arts and Technology were wonderful places where learning happened in conjunction with employment, in our national stupidity we virtually destroyed all of that and instead now send our young off to University instead. Universities were, of course, wonderful institutions but the bulk of students who go to them now would (IMHO) learn more and be financially better off by following the old ‘day release’ routes.

When I was there in the late seventies there were quite a few like me , working class scum. I suspect it was the case with most northern universities.

If someone wants to take a degree in English, foreign languages, History, Art, Geography, Biology, Maths, Physics, Chemistry etc how could they do it on day release at a tech?

[Tangled Metal]

I went to Leeds uni too. Did an engineering degree there. Used to hear about the civil engineers in the first year claiming they had the most exams and hours of lectures / labwork of any engineering course indeed any course apart from medics. Yeah right! Beat 29 exams at the end of year one! Overworked and over consuming alcohol. Those were great days!

Did they have the poly cop when you were at Leeds? If you don't understand that I won't explain further on a nice forum like this.

I was there when a gunman was loose on the campus. I wasn't worried about the gunmen only the thought that I was on my first year of the same course that rumours held at him off. He was final year and the workload made him crack. What had I let myself in for?! Wasn't bad in the end.

Anyway I digress. Leeds in my day had a full mix of students but tbh they were pretty normal bunch that I met. Eton types don't go to Leeds. More likely to see Jack straw types. You know, ex grammar school kids who went to a good state school and were really middle class but also socialist in outlook.

[reohn2]

You don't have to google far to find there are private tutors in Finland which must mean some parents feel the education system is not doing enough for their kids.

It reminds me of an anecdote recounted by Billy Bragg in a book about touring in the Soviet Union. In their party of four left-leaning Brits two wouldn't ban private schools and two would. They asked their Soviet interpreter about it and he enthusiastically recommended private schools, saying that if his parents hadn't paid for private tutoring in English he wouldn't have the job he had now. The two who didn't agree with private education rather glumly shut up.

But the story proves a point - those who are better off, or who might sacrifice more for their kids, can always get better education.

But that story only illustrates private education in a single subject in the same way a child would have say private piano lessons,what was being stated earlier in the thread was private tuition to pass exams because schools have become about passing exams due to league tables and post code schooling.Which hilights that there's something funamentally wrong with the UK education system IMHO.
I don't see a problem with specialist subjects for students later in their schooling or parents paying for that but if a student shows such talents it shouldn't be their parent's bank balance that decides if they have the opportunity to pursue it.

[reohn2]

Another point I like to make is that the UK is moving to ever larger schools which IMO does nothing for individual students needs on more than one level.

[Carlton green]

To further feed his prejudices I went to Leeds - a dumbed down, red brick university.

Gosh, when I was a Lad it was the clever posh ones that went to Leeds - sadly that’s actually the truth and I would never have got in there.

Colleges of Arts and Technology were wonderful places where learning happened in conjunction with employment, in our national stupidity we virtually destroyed all of that and instead now send our young off to University instead. Universities were, of course, wonderful institutions but the bulk of students who go to them now would (IMHO) learn more and be financially better off by following the old ‘day release’ routes.

When I was there in the late seventies there were quite a few like me , working class scum. I suspect it was the case with most northern universities.

If someone wants to take a degree in English, foreign languages, History, Art, Geography, Biology, Maths, Physics, Chemistry etc how could they do it on day release at a tech?

When the Art and Technical Colleges were working at their best (so many decades past) it was possible and common to gain vocational qualifications in the vast bulk of subjects - many in your list of subjects would be included - the highest level offered tended to the HND (part time over four years was possible) and some Colleges did offer external degrees too. A degree was regarded as a high level academic qualification that not everyone needed and the ability to do the job was what was most important - the purpose of Education was it’s use in supporting practical activities. The Open University further opened up Higher Education to the man and woman in the street but sadly we have effectively killed that too (it is a shadow of its former self) by the over expansion of traditional Universities. Of course not every subject can be taught in the way needed via the likes of the OU and Colleges (Medicine and Dentistry come to mind) but the vast bulk of subjects can be and were.

Views will vary but IMHO Education has lost sight of its purpose, it is now so focused on standards and conformity that learning for application, pleasure and personalised growth have been lost. We can measure everything and know its price but have lost sight of value, ultimately what interests and helps the student is the practical value of something to them in their daily lives and the future they see for themselves.

[Oldjohnw]

A radical thought, perhaps, but I fear that there are significant numbers in our ruling elite who would like our poor to be deprived of a decent education and keep them uneducated. That way, the elite are maintained, the poor vote for the turkey Christmas.

[francovendee]

.........Most people who are conservative (small c) or vote Conservative don't have that kind of money to spare.

Though many parents or grandparents will have the means to pay a private tutor to train their children how the pass the necessary exams to further their 'education'
It seems to me we're teaching children fo pass exams so schools can climb league tables,so students leave with paper qualifications to the next step in their training program which maybe be small or larger increments according to the papers they hold and from which school in the league they were obtained from.
This IFAICS is the basis of the post code school syndrome.
The final step is a good university made into a business,again through league tables.
This isn't education,it's specific and narrow training to pass certain criteria to earn money and the better the school(s) and uni the more the mular earning potential of the 'product'.

The private school system is a similar system for the well off,the present PM and many MPs are the product of that system.

Spot on !
A friend who teaches gives private lessons after his school day to parents' children who are doing everything to ensure their future. I've asked what their parents do for a living and most have average jobs , plumber, council worker, mechanic and self employed gardener, none are earning mega ££'s I'd say.
The reason they pay for additional tuition is so the children get a 'fair' chance in life.
Certainly not all parents paying for private education are rich but neither are they the very poor. Do I condemn them? No, I condemn the system we have where any available cash can buy a child an advantage. Of course the richer the parent the more advantage that can be bought.

[Carlton green]

A radical thought, perhaps, but I fear that there are significant numbers in our ruling elite who would like our poor to be deprived of a decent education and keep them uneducated. That way, the elite are maintained, the poor vote for the turkey Christmas.

I don’t believe that that is the case at all. The elite aren’t a cohesive group and there is social mobility, some rich become poor and vice versa. Entry to the likes of Oxford and Cambridge is now far more open to the poor but gifted than it ever was and discrimination laws are both in place and used. Those that can afford to like to give their children the best possible start in life and that’s perceived to be various forms of additional tuition and private education, sometimes it works and sometimes it turns out to be a complete waste of money.

[Carlton green]

A friend who teaches gives private lessons after his school day to parents' children who are doing everything to ensure their future. I've asked what their parents do for a living and most have average jobs , plumber, council worker, mechanic and self employed gardener, none are earning mega ££'s I'd say.

The reason they pay for additional tuition is so the children get a 'fair' chance in life.

Certainly not all parents paying for private education are rich but neither are they the very poor. Do I condemn them? No, I condemn the system we have where any available cash can buy a child an advantage.

Of course the richer the parent the more advantage that can be bought.

I think the bulk of what you say above matches my own experience of things and certainly doing something to give your child a fair chance in life is something I regard as reasonable.

On the very last point any ‘advantage’ gained often is either in some part short term or very easily lost by the child, well over the years that’s just what I’ve casually observed. Some go on to make the very best of themselves and build on the foundations given to them and others either haven’t the intellect to capitalise on their earlier education or haven’t got the attitudes needed to do so.

[Tangled Metal]

I read an article about education in a few Asian countries. Can't remember which now but I believe they're the ones where performance of education system has surpassed most European ones.

What their systems consisted of was state schools followed by private schools after the normal school day. Parents paid a lot to get the best for their kids. Often grandparents gave up their money to pay for it and moving in with their kids (the parents). It has become the case that kids got n left behind if they didn't do this. Kids doing 15 hour plus days.

Private schooling is probably more common than people realise outside of the European countries.

[pete75]

I went to Leeds uni too. Did an engineering degree there. Used to hear about the civil engineers in the first year claiming they had the most exams and hours of lectures / labwork of any engineering course indeed any course apart from medics. Yeah right! Beat 29 exams at the end of year one! Overworked and over consuming alcohol. Those were great days!

Did they have the poly cop when you were at Leeds? If you don't understand that I won't explain further on a nice forum like this.

I was there when a gunman was loose on the campus. I wasn't worried about the gunmen only the thought that I was on my first year of the same course that rumours held at him off. He was final year and the workload made him crack. What had I let myself in for?! Wasn't bad in the end.

Anyway I digress. Leeds in my day had a full mix of students but tbh they were pretty normal bunch that I met. Eton types don't go to Leeds. More likely to see Jack straw types. You know, ex grammar school kids who went to a good state school and were really middle class but also socialist in outlook.

When I was there we had the Ripper.
A lot of my friends were medics and I shared a house in Headingley with three of them for two years. Their course didn't seem particularly arduous. They used to moan about how the fifth member of our household, a law student, would earn a lot more than them. They were right too, she now earns over twice as much as the average GP.
I just cruised through University in the same way I did at school , always managing a bit better than average with damn all work. Just managed to scrape a 2:1. Maybe I could have achieved something if I'd actually applied myself.
I think you need to work much harder at at University now with course work being taken into as much account as exams - I probably wouldn't have made it past the first year.

[Tangled Metal]

The first year medics I knew from halls seemed to have tests / exams every few weeks. Plus late night work / lectures / tutorials.

We worked a full day doing lectures (except sports Wednesday) in the morning without a break. Then half an hour for lunch before lab work. If really lucky our labs went well and we could leave early or write them up in the lab. Either way you had to do the full day work.

Except I didn't. I left and chilled out instead. Meant I had to write all labs up at the end of term and not get any credit for them. I had the attitude that I'd learnt all the lab work could offer so why bother with the paperwork? It was kind of important for me to learn but personally wasn't bothered by proving what I'd learnt.

Laziness mixed with something else I can't explain. Still paid the price with a shoot degree that took a masters to recover a bit. What I know about life now I regret with a passion my attitude as a youth. I know I'd have retaken all my a levels while taking a year out to work. Then improve my grades and get to a better course that suited me better. I never had careers advice at school and never really had any clue what was my best option for a career. I now have the attitude that work is something you do but you rarely enjoy. My partner is the opposite her job is something she likes to do and often does into the next day.