** The Climate Change Thread **

[Psamathe]

Question for the Knowledgable:
When hydrocarbons are phased out completely, what would be powering our agricultural tractors and our lorries, etc.?

I'm all in favour of phasing out hydrocarbons asap and in no way denying anything. But as I understand it, batteries are currently (and for foreseeable future) inadequate for powering tractors, lorries, etc. Plus as cars and vans with ICOs are replaced with batteries so oil refineries will disappear and hydrocarbon fuels will dramatically decline as thus become more expensive and with higher delivery costs.

As things stand now do such vehicles switch to green hydrogen? My guess (without having seen data) is that the moisture impact from such use would be minimal?

Ian

[Jdsk]

You've got the most important point: it's different from the requirements of car-like objects used on public roads.

I think that you can find most of the possibilities for earthmoving and agriculture being explored by at least one of the big companies: batteries, swappable batteries, fuel cells, ICEs that run on non fossil fuels...
https://www.jcb.com/en-gb/products/mini ... ors/19c-1e
https://www.caterpillar.com/en/news/cor ... truck.html
https://www.deere.com/en/stories/featur ... ty-report/
https://electrek.co/2021/12/15/john-dee ... fy-lineup/

And hydrogen could be generated on- or off-site. At the scale of docks and big mines doing things on-site becomes feasible where it isn't with multiple users and public access.

Jonathan

PS: JCB list the many advantages of electrical power here:
https://www.jcb.com/en-gb/products/mini ... ors/19c-1e

[Jdsk]

And trucks on public roads are different again.

The most interesting punt is the Tesla Semi, now in production:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Semi

... can it routinely achieve a range of 800 km?

Jonathan

[Biospace]

Mini diggers with their relatively low energy consumption are ideal for battery power but I suspect there could be significant hurdles to overcome with machinery like combine harvesters and heavy logging equipment.

A brief google suggests that a mini digger may use between 1 and 4 litres of fuel/hour, tractors typically 20 litres/hour, a combine harvester 30 to 100 litres/hour and a container ship typically 4500 litres/hour.

It appears that 1.5MWh of battery would be needed to power a combine harvester typical to British farms for a day's working. As a single unit that might be considered to be of an order of size of that of a half length (20') shipping container. Is it possible smaller ones could be recharged on the go with a tractor and battery trailer running alongside? I doubt it. Possibly a trailered battery of 500kWh, with a spare or two on charge.

Until batteries and ther materials are mined, refined and manufacturered with mostly renewable energy (at present it's coal and diesel) and where environmental standards are better than in the Far East and additionally until the Grid is balanced with renewable energy, I'd suggest that just as with BEVs with large batteries the lifetime carbon emissions of battery powered combines are going to be similar to those powered by diesel.

It has been suggested that to try to ‘decarbonise’ transport before energy supply would lead to some very perverse results.

[Biospace]

Question for the Knowledgable:
When hydrocarbons are phased out completely, what would be powering our agricultural tractors and our lorries, etc.?

I'm all in favour of phasing out hydrocarbons asap and in no way denying anything. But as I understand it, batteries are currently (and for foreseeable future) inadequate for powering tractors, lorries, etc. Plus as cars and vans with ICOs are replaced with batteries so oil refineries will disappear and hydrocarbon fuels will dramatically decline as thus become more expensive and with higher delivery costs.

As things stand now do such vehicles switch to green hydrogen? My guess (without having seen data) is that the moisture impact from such use would be minimal?

Ian

Here's an all electric vehicle recovery truck in use in Norway,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qX2_WwQk0Bg

[Pebble]

going to be trialling electric wagons on the timber haul routes.
https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/truck- ... n-scotland

quite a loss on payload, 21t instead of 25t, not sure they will get a whole days work out of them either.

I would have thought electric wagons would be better used where payload was not critical, for instance plenty supermarket wagons run at no where near max weight, and since they are often in built up areas we would get the added benefit of less human health destroying pollution.

[Psamathe]

UK again demonstrating its lack of commitment to addressing Climate Change as the UK Minister for Climate Change leaves COP28 before it's finished to return to UK!

Cop28 live: fury as UK minister in charge of climate talks leaves conference
Greenpeace says Graham Stuart’s return to London is ‘outrageous dereliction of leadership’ as Caroline Lucas says UK has ‘obliterated its moral authority’
...

Ian

[Jdsk]

...
I would have thought electric wagons would be better used where payload was not critical, for instance plenty supermarket wagons run at no where near max weight, and since they are often in built up areas we would get the added benefit of less human health destroying pollution.

We'd be smart to have a specific initiative for migrating delivery vehicles to battery power. Less local pollution, as you say, very predictable distances, and those with fleets would work very nicely for training the future workforce on maintaining and repairing EVs.

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

UK again demonstrating its lack of commitment to addressing Climate Change as the UK Minister for Climate Change leaves COP28 before it's finished to return to UK!

Cop28 live: fury as UK minister in charge of climate talks leaves conference
Greenpeace says Graham Stuart’s return to London is ‘outrageous dereliction of leadership’ as Caroline Lucas says UK has ‘obliterated its moral authority’
...

Is this in order to vote in the House of Commons tonight?

Jonathan

[Psamathe]

UK again demonstrating its lack of commitment to addressing Climate Change as the UK Minister for Climate Change leaves COP28 before it's finished to return to UK!

Cop28 live: fury as UK minister in charge of climate talks leaves conference
Greenpeace says Graham Stuart’s return to London is ‘outrageous dereliction of leadership’ as Caroline Lucas says UK has ‘obliterated its moral authority’
...

Is this in order to vote in the House of Commons tonight?

Jonathan

No idea but if it is reflects badly when world facing disaster and UK prioritises stopping a few hundred refugees fleeing persecution and seeking asylum (as permitted under international treaties).

Ian

[Jdsk]

You've got the most important point: it's different from the requirements of car-like objects used on public roads.

I think that you can find most of the possibilities for earthmoving and agriculture being explored by at least one of the big companies: batteries, swappable batteries, fuel cells, ICEs that run on non fossil fuels...
https://www.jcb.com/en-gb/products/mini ... ors/19c-1e
https://www.caterpillar.com/en/news/cor ... truck.html
https://www.deere.com/en/stories/featur ... ty-report/
https://electrek.co/2021/12/15/john-dee ... fy-lineup/

And hydrogen could be generated on- or off-site. At the scale of docks and big mines doing things on-site becomes feasible where it isn't with multiple users and public access.

PS: JCB list the many advantages of electrical power here:
https://www.jcb.com/en-gb/products/mini ... ors/19c-1e

"GM and Komatsu will add hydrogen fuel cells to an electric mining truck":
https://electrek.co/2023/12/12/gm-komat ... uel-cells/

Jonathan

[Psamathe]

So we're on a bus hurtling towards the edge of a cliff. Despite having been aware of "brakes{ since we got on the bus, it's only when we're travelling at 60 mph virtually at the edge of the cliff that we get round to mentioning the brake. Of course to decide to apply the brake would be just far to big a step. Undoubtedly somebody will invent anti-gravity in the next few moments to save us.

But those enjoying the ride celebrate how they managed to block the concept of applying the brake.

I'm coming to the opinion that human race deserves what it is doing to itself. Maybe the next dominant life-form will have more common sense?

Ian

[Mike Sales]

So we're on a bus hurtling towards the edge of a cliff. Despite having been aware of "brakes{ since we got on the bus, it's only when we're travelling at 60 mph virtually at the edge of the cliff that we get round to mentioning the brake. Of course to decide to apply the brake would be just far to big a step. Undoubtedly somebody will invent anti-gravity in the next few moments to save us.

But those enjoying the ride celebrate how they managed to block the concept of applying the brake.

I'm coming to the opinion that human race deserves what it is doing to itself. Maybe the next dominant life-form will have more common sense?

Ian

That is a good simile.
Sometimes I am glad that I likely will not be around to see the fan splattering. Though I admit to some curiosity.

[ANTONISH]

UK again demonstrating its lack of commitment to addressing Climate Change as the UK Minister for Climate Change leaves COP28 before it's finished to return to UK!

Is this in order to vote in the House of Commons tonight?

Jonathan

No idea but if it is reflects badly when world facing disaster and UK prioritises stopping a few hundred refugees fleeing persecution and seeking asylum (as permitted under international treaties).

Ian

They aren't fleeing persecution if they are in France - they want to come to the UK for economic reasons.

[Chris Jeggo]

... or maybe because they can speak English.