** The Climate Change Thread **

[mattheus]

Low carbon digression:

Is there a NON-AI way to produce a comprehensible digest of texts like this: viewtopic.php?p=1928066#p1928066

[Carlton green]

With regard to extreme stances I’d say that perfection is the enemy of good, so get on with achievable good and set aside perfection for those saintly enough to achieve it.

Aircraft are something that should be firmly in the environmentalists sights but transport through flight will be with us indefinitely so the aim should be flight which is both more environmentally friendly than the alternative transport and as environmentally friendly as is practical. I suspect it’s being done already, but legally limiting aircraft noise and fuel consumption is a good way to nudge aviation towards greener operation. The UK’s laws only apply here but we can - or should be able to - control what (characteristics of) aircraft land and take off at our airports, and we can control volumes too.

Nudges produce change over time and do so in various parts of our lifetime and the society in which we live. imho it’s far more beneficial to help and nudge people towards better choices, forget perfection and seek out what’s good, ‘cause good will make the needed differences.

[roubaixtuesday]

With regard to extreme stances I’d say that perfection is the enemy of good, so get on with achievable good and set aside perfection for those saintly enough to achieve it.

Aircraft are something that should be firmly in the environmentalists sights but transport through flight will be with us indefinitely so the aim should be flight which is both more environmentally friendly than the alternative transport and as environmentally friendly as is practical. I suspect it’s being done already, but legally limiting aircraft noise and fuel consumption is a good way to nudge aviation towards greener operation. The UK’s laws only apply here but we can - or should be able to - control what (characteristics of) aircraft land and take off at our airports, and we can control volumes too.

Nudges produce change over time and do so in various parts of our lifetime and the society in which we live. imho it’s far more beneficial to help and nudge people towards better choices, forget perfection and seek out what’s good, ‘cause good will make the needed differences.

I agree with you in general.

Specifically for aviation, though, aircraft fuel consumption has thermodynamic limits and improvements can only ever be at the margins.

There's no such thing as low carbon flight, and the various attempts to justify it are IMO straightforward greenwashing.

[Carlton green]

Specifically for aviation, though, aircraft fuel consumption has thermodynamic limits and improvements can only ever be at the margins.

There's no such thing as low carbon flight, and the various attempts to justify it are IMO straightforward greenwashing.

Yes, there are limits to the amount of improvement possible but that said are we really pushing hard up against them? I suspect that aircraft are run for maximum profit and that other constraints are an inconvenience to aviation companies (who are trying to turn a profit, in a competitive industry, and give some form of financial payback to investors).

The lowest form of carbon free flight is not to make that journey, and certainly not for recreational purposes. In terms of environmental responsibility I’m inclined to think that Governments should be looking at the purpose of flights and then seeing how those purposes might be suitably met in a more environmentally friendly way.

I’d suggest that the most efficient aircraft are the slower speed ones using propellers and that very long haul fights (that carry additional fuel to avoid having to land to refuel) are not fuel efficient. Two factors that we could control in terms of what aircraft are deemed OK / less adverse to use within UK airspace…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_economy_in_aircraft

[Cugel]

Low carbon digression:

Is there a NON-AI way to produce a comprehensible digest of texts like this: viewtopic.php?p=1928066#p1928066

Come come - jus' because you have yourself degraded to more or less Xitter-style posts doesn't mean that everyone else has forgotten how to make and comprehend compositions without that queer app stuff you probably also got sucked into 'cos its the latest thing. Why assume everyone else has your low abilities with the words and phrases so cannot compose or read a-one without a LLM to "think" or explain for them?

Perhaps you lacked a "Mr Brown, English master and martinet" at skool? Wot would the cane-crazy ole coot have made of XItter and Facepuke blabber!? He must be turning in his grave and scrabbling for that cane.

[the snail]

I agree with you in general.

Specifically for aviation, though, aircraft fuel consumption has thermodynamic limits and improvements can only ever be at the margins.

There's no such thing as low carbon flight, and the various attempts to justify it are IMO straightforward greenwashing.

I think taxation of aviation is governed by international treaty,so not easy to change. Aviation is a relatively small percentage of emissions with limited scope for low-carbon alternatives as far as the technology goes, so it probably makes sense to focus on motor vehicles, energy and industry etc. where there are low-carbon options available. Once those more straightforward areas are tackled then we can think about aviation.

[Vorpal]

I agree with you in general.

Specifically for aviation, though, aircraft fuel consumption has thermodynamic limits and improvements can only ever be at the margins.

There's no such thing as low carbon flight, and the various attempts to justify it are IMO straightforward greenwashing.

I think taxation of aviation is governed by international treaty,so not easy to change. Aviation is a relatively small percentage of emissions with limited scope for low-carbon alternatives as far as the technology goes, so it probably makes sense to focus on motor vehicles, energy and industry etc. where there are low-carbon options available. Once those more straightforward areas are tackled then we can think about aviation.

There are other problems with flying than just carbon emissions, however, I think there is more scope for low-carbon alternatives than you think.

Several companies are working on electric and/or hydrogen fuel cell planes. Electric planes have been tested and fuel cell planes are under development at large companies, such as airbus.

Of course, this will make it easier for people to continue to justify or greenwash air travel, which also causes deforestation, use of resources, etc.

[roubaixtuesday]

Several companies are working on electric and/or hydrogen fuel cell planes. Electric planes have been tested and fuel cell planes are under development at large companies, such as airbus.

Not planes that are remotely comparable to jet airliners AFAICT. I think this is pure fantasy.

I'm often wrong though, would appreciate a link if so this time.

[Jdsk]

Several companies are working on electric and/or hydrogen fuel cell planes. Electric planes have been tested and fuel cell planes are under development at large companies, such as airbus.

Not planes that are remotely comparable to jet airliners AFAICT. I think this is pure fantasy.

I'm often wrong though, would appreciate a link if so this time.

For electric aircraft:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_aircraft
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_electric_aircraft

And for "sustainable" aviation fuels:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_ ... tion_fuels
https://www.iairgroup.com/sustainabilit ... tion-fuel/

Jonathan

[roubaixtuesday]

Several companies are working on electric and/or hydrogen fuel cell planes. Electric planes have been tested and fuel cell planes are under development at large companies, such as airbus.

Not planes that are remotely comparable to jet airliners AFAICT. I think this is pure fantasy.

I'm often wrong though, would appreciate a link if so this time.

For electric aircraft:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_aircraft
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_electric_aircraft

And for "sustainable" aviation fuels:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_ ... tion_fuels
https://www.iairgroup.com/sustainabilit ... tion-fuel/

Jonathan

And are any of those to anything credible remotely comparable to a jet airliner?

[roubaixtuesday]

17 GW and growing Chinese (actually Tibetan) solar power station.

That's 6x Hinkley C!

(Though I think that's peak, so not a direct comparison, I guess perhaps about 2x in annual capacity)

https://bsky.app/profile/janrosenow.bsk ... guyepstc2g

Energy supply is transforming.

[Vorpal]

And are any of those to anything credible remotely comparable to a jet airliner?

Not yet, but Airbus have an extensive development program and also EU funding for electric fuel cell planes.

https://www.airbus.com/en/innovation/en ... d-aircraft

There is a funded plan to trial a network of electric fuel cell cargo planes in Norway

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo ... r-AA1QftRM

I think that beginning with smaller aircraft and cargo planes is wise from a safety perspective.

[roubaixtuesday]

And are any of those to anything credible remotely comparable to a jet airliner?

Not yet, but Airbus have an extensive development program and also EU funding for electric fuel cell planes.

https://www.airbus.com/en/innovation/en ... d-aircraft

There is a funded plan to trial a network of electric fuel cell cargo planes in Norway

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo ... r-AA1QftRM

I think that beginning with smaller aircraft and cargo planes is wise from a safety perspective.

I shall continue to regard these as fantastical as far as equivalent performance replacements for current technology goes. There doesn't seem to be any credible line of sight to that on any timescale.

Again, very happy to be proved wrong.

[Vorpal]

Both are actually being built, now. I guess we will see what happens with them.

[roubaixtuesday]

Both are actually being built, now. I guess we will see what happens with them.

One is a Cessna equivalent. Nothing like a jet airliner.

The other...

Airbus said that its ZEROe plans will therefore be changed, and it does not expect hydrogen planes to be in service until the late 2040s.

https://sustainabilitymag.com/articles/ ... n-aircraft

Physics is against this concept, alas.