** The Climate Change Thread **

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Jdsk
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Re: ** The Climate Change Thread **

Post by Jdsk »

Bsteel wrote: 26 Jul 2022, 3:44pm
Jdsk wrote: 26 Jul 2022, 3:36pm Haber? But both Haber and Bosch were German...
Wasn't Haber Prussian ?
Yes. Born in Prussia. And also German. The Kingdom of Prussia was a German state.

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: ** The Climate Change Thread **

Post by Jdsk »

Thanks

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: ** The Climate Change Thread **

Post by Jdsk »

AlaninWales wrote: 26 Jul 2022, 3:27pmNow we have a much larger population highly dependent on the energy-hungry process (amongst others) and are rapidly running out of the main sources of energy production we are set up to exploit. At the same time, our means of exploiting energy reserves are causing knock-on effects that have been known but ignored for decades. When the energy crunch comes (as is probably inevitable now), the effects won't just be the direct climatic effects and high energy prices; those processes we relied on to allow our increased population and higher (on average) quality of life, will themselves be unsustainable.
Yes. The production of fertiliser needs to move to novel methods to reduce the energy consumption, as do many other processes. There are many candidates. The problem is the usual one: each step in the change might not be immediately profitable for the people who have to make it. That's why we have to be smarter and more collaborative.

Jonathan
reohn2
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Re: ** The Climate Change Thread **

Post by reohn2 »

Jdsk wrote: 26 Jul 2022, 3:55pm ......... That's why we have to be smarter and more collaborative.

Jonathan
But we aren't,that is we aren't enough to see ourselves as a collective,that's what capitalism's all about,or am I mistaken?
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Jdsk
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Re: ** The Climate Change Thread **

Post by Jdsk »

reohn2 wrote: 26 Jul 2022, 5:52pm
Jdsk wrote: 26 Jul 2022, 3:55pm ......... That's why we have to be smarter and more collaborative.
But we aren't,that is we aren't enough to see ourselves as a collective,that's what capitalism's all about,or am I misraken?
There are many good examples of collaboration. There aren't enough yet.

I certainly don't expect a market economy on its own to minimise the harm from climate change.

Jonathan
reohn2
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Re: ** The Climate Change Thread **

Post by reohn2 »

Jdsk wrote: 26 Jul 2022, 6:00pm
reohn2 wrote: 26 Jul 2022, 5:52pm
Jdsk wrote: 26 Jul 2022, 3:55pm ......... That's why we have to be smarter and more collaborative.
But we aren't,that is we aren't enough to see ourselves as a collective,that's what capitalism's all about,or am I misraken?
There are many good examples of collaboration. There aren't enough yet.

I certainly don't expect a market economy on its own to minimise the harm from climate change.

Jonathan
Agreed!
And when times get tougher,which they will AFAICS,collaboration will diminish IMHO.
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Cugel
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Re: ** The Climate Change Thread **

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simonineaston wrote: 26 Jul 2022, 12:56pm What will be interesting is what'll happen when the bulk of population realises that the very few who are in charge are not doing what's right. I don't think that day is far off.
Of course "doing what's right" is indefinable, so for one group it might mean keeping immigants out, others may feel its more important to cease all use of fossil fuels, others might set greatest store on their continuing right to cart their kiddies to the local school by car, etc. etc. etc. - the exact nature of each red line is by-the-by...
What's more important is the perception that we are no longer in control. The rule of law is under stress and the prospect of civil dispobedience becomes increasingly real. And of course, this trend has already begun.
But on the plus side, there is time left for a few more bike rides :D
"We" never were in control. Humans do hubris, tending to obscure the fact that we're controlled not controlling. The controller is "nature", a highly complex "system" that's essentially chaotic but contains periods of apparent stability as events interact around a "strange attractor". Such stable states gradually break down and there's a lurch to a new strange attractor with it's new apparently stable state. The new stable state may contain rather less elements of the old one than we would like - no humans ... or even mammals perhaps!

But we humans are very inclined to come up with "rationalisations after the fact" in which we invent reasons why it was us wot done it, the controlling of events. "We" just made some mistakes. Ha ha.

I know many still cling to the notion of Progress (with that capital "P") denoting a constant improvement in human affairs. Look how medicine and modern farming techniques allow us to feed the ever-expanding world population! But that's really just technological progress. There isn't any fundamental change in human affairs, in which we act as both angels and devils as we've always done. The current issue is that technological progress has vastly amplified our ability to perform both angelic and devilish acts. The latter are about to obliterate all of the former.

Someone will claim that a naughty human planned it all, though. But even the biggest baddest fellows are just more puppets of human nature and the way of the world. They can't be other than they are, no matter how powerful they or "we" think they are. See their tugging strings.

Cugel
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mattheus
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Re: ** The Climate Change Thread **

Post by mattheus »

Jdsk wrote: 26 Jul 2022, 6:00pm
reohn2 wrote: 26 Jul 2022, 5:52pm
Jdsk wrote: 26 Jul 2022, 3:55pm ......... That's why we have to be smarter and more collaborative.
But we aren't,that is we aren't enough to see ourselves as a collective,that's what capitalism's all about,or am I misraken?
There are many good examples of collaboration. There aren't enough yet.

I certainly don't expect a market economy on its own to minimise the harm from climate change.

Jonathan
I think capitalism is inherently promoting climate change. "I'm alright Jack" is the driving force.
reohn2
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Re: ** The Climate Change Thread **

Post by reohn2 »

mattheus wrote: 27 Jul 2022, 8:50am I think capitalism is inherently promoting climate change. "I'm alright Jack" is the driving force.
Agreed and the way it's been promoted in the UK at least with almost god like status,certainly over the past 50years,is proof of that.
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axel_knutt
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Re: ** The Climate Change Thread **

Post by axel_knutt »

reohn2 wrote: 25 Jul 2022, 7:27pm We will not stop breeding because it's in our nature to proliferate even if brings about our ultimate extinction.
We already have. The problem with the birth rate is already fixed, the additional projected growth is already locked into the system as living kids grow up and have kids of their own.

The problem is not the population, or economic development by the poorest, it’s the rich minority hogging all the wealth, and blaming it on the poor.
Global Wealth Distribution.png
1.1% of the population hold 46% of the wealth, and 55% of the population hold 1.3% of the wealth. If the rich stopped hogging wealth and still seeking more you could lift the poorest out of poverty, and reduce the environmental burden as well.
The UK is part of the 12% of the world's population hogging 85% of the wealth, that's what needs to change.
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reohn2
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Re: ** The Climate Change Thread **

Post by reohn2 »

axel_knutt
You'll get no argument from me about the lack of wealth distribution,yes were it more equal population increase may be slower.
But we cannot get away from the fact that the world population is increasing at an alarming rate,currently at 8billion,an increase of 33%in the last 20years,and double what it was in 1975!
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al_yrpal
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Re: ** The Climate Change Thread **

Post by al_yrpal »

I saw this on the BBC and thought you should see it:

Climate change: UK sea level rise speeding up - Met Office - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-62322574
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
Pebble
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Re: ** The Climate Change Thread **

Post by Pebble »

axel_knutt wrote: 27 Jul 2022, 6:05pm
reohn2 wrote: 25 Jul 2022, 7:27pm We will not stop breeding because it's in our nature to proliferate even if brings about our ultimate extinction.
We already have. The problem with the birth rate is already fixed, the additional projected growth is already locked into the system as living kids grow up and have kids of their own.

The problem is not the population, or economic development by the poorest, it’s the rich minority hogging all the wealth, and blaming it on the poor.

Global Wealth Distribution.png
1.1% of the population hold 46% of the wealth, and 55% of the population hold 1.3% of the wealth. If the rich stopped hogging wealth and still seeking more you could lift the poorest out of poverty, and reduce the environmental burden as well.
The UK is part of the 12% of the world's population hogging 85% of the wealth, that's what needs to change.
One of the best ways to stabilise or even reduce population is to more evenly distribute wealth, as soon as populations become wealthier they become better educated and stop having as many children.

The rub is once they become wealthier they start to consume more of the planets resources. Out of the 7 billion of us, it is probably less than half a billion (the wealthy ones like us) who are destroying the planet with our wanton consumerism.

If the entire 7 billion of the worlds population start living like we do then the environment does not stand a chance, even if we cut our individual ecological footprint by 50%, our global collective foot print would still increase by something daft like 500% . Our environment and all the other creatures and bio diversity that share our planet do not stand a hope in hell

if we all had the same ecological footprint as we do in the UK then we would need another 3.2 planets like earth to live sustainably
if we all had the same ecological footprint as they do in the USA then we would need another 7.1 planets like earth to live sustainably
we need to adopt the lifestyle and consumerism as per central africa to halt our excesses
https://data.footprintnetwork.org/#/
Jdsk
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Re: ** The Climate Change Thread **

Post by Jdsk »

Pebble wrote: 28 Jul 2022, 8:08amOne of the best ways to stabilise or even reduce population is to more evenly distribute wealth, as soon as populations become wealthier they become better educated and stop having as many children.
Yes. Only looking at historical population growth is very misleading.

The other big factor with an effect in the same direction is female education and emancipation.

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: ** The Climate Change Thread **

Post by Jdsk »

axel_knutt wrote: 27 Jul 2022, 6:05pm
reohn2 wrote: 25 Jul 2022, 7:27pm We will not stop breeding because it's in our nature to proliferate even if brings about our ultimate extinction.
We already have.
Rosling is an exceptionally good explainer of how this works. And watching or reading his explanations a very valuable counterweight to innumerate apocalypse.

Jonathan
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