Helmets Anyone?

AllanJ
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Re: Helmets

Post by AllanJ »

Firebird wrote:My apologies folks. I thought that I was encouraging people to return to the roads on two wheels who like myself have been absent from the saddle or have not ridden at all.

I had no idea that there were so many facists.
.

I've read though this thread and can't see any posts that would make me label their authors a facist. You made a post on a thread discussing helmet use and some people disagreed with you.

Firebird wrote:I thought cycling was an activity that "everyman" could engage in, however it seems there is a lot of snobbery and elitism in it.

Obviously you look down on learners who are trying to get started.

Again, I can't see any evidence of this - just people stating their own opinions.

Helmets are an emotive issue amongst cyclists. There seems (IMHO) to be little real-world evidence that they do much good and their promotion seems to perpetuate the myth that cycling is a risky activity.

Like (I guess) most people on this thread I'm looking forward to seeing your films and anything promoting/publicising cycling is a good thing. If it was my film I wouldn't mention helmets - but it's not mine it's yours!

Regards
Allan
fatboy
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Re: Vote for your "Bone Dome" now!

Post by fatboy »

petercook80 wrote:Why do you wear one if as you say a 'lump of polystyrene wont protect you'. If you really believe that then why bother? (I think thats a fair question).

(I wear one because I believe it would 'help'.)


It is a fair question and here is my answer (sorry it's taken me so long to find your question). I think that helmets may have a benefit for the slow speeds and low height drops that a child might experience when they fall off therefore as I want my children to wear one then I have to. When my kids are older I may stop. I still an sceptical that if I were to fall off at 20mph whether they'd be much use.

I hope that that answers it for you.

Chris
"Marriage is a wonderful invention; but then again so is the bicycle puncture repair kit." - Billy Connolly
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bovlomov
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Re: Vote for your "Bone Dome" now!

Post by bovlomov »

Firebird wrote:There is a lot of animosity on this site isn't there?


Where did you get that idea?

I expressed the hope that your endeavours weren't being funded by the taxpayer. You tell me that they are not. Jolly good!

You may have noticed that the taxpayer funds quite a lot of helmet promotion. I, for one, have questioned Transport for London on this policy. After months of correspondence they were unable to point me to one piece of research on which their pro-helmet policy was based. In other words, this isn't a disagreement about the differing research; TfL has embarked on a crusade without even bothering to read anything about the subject, motivated solely by an incoherent sense of public duty.

Hopefully the new mayor will put a stop to that rubbish.

I advise against throwing the word 'fascist' about lightly. What exactly do you mean by it? A supporter of Benito Mussolini?
kwackers
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Re: Vote for your "Bone Dome" now!

Post by kwackers »

fatboy wrote:It is a fair question and here is my answer (sorry it's taken me so long to find your question). I think that helmets may have a benefit for the slow speeds and low height drops that a child might experience when they fall off therefore as I want my children to wear one then I have to. When my kids are older I may stop. I still an sceptical that if I were to fall off at 20mph whether they'd be much use.

I hope that that answers it for you.

Chris


There is one other reason - and one of the main reasons I wear one. In the event of an accident it removes any chance of a suggestion by a 3rd party that I hadn't taken steps to protect myself.
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bovlomov
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Post by bovlomov »

Clarification:

Some cyclists, understanding the pros and cons of helmets, choose to wear one. There are plenty of them posting on this forum. If they've weighed the evidence and made that judgement then who am I to argue?

Other helmet wearers are guided by nothing more than superstition. Again, I have no right to interfere.

Finally there are those who tell me that I should wear a helmet and those who campaign for a change in the law - some of them using public funds.

It's only fair that this last group have their assertions challenged. It's not fascism but highly democratic.
George Riches
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Re: Vote for your "Bone Dome" now!

Post by George Riches »

kwackers wrote:There is one other reason - and one of the main reasons I wear one. In the event of an accident it removes any chance of a suggestion by a 3rd party that I hadn't taken steps to protect myself.


The insurers of the other party in the crash will try anything, including whether there was an alternative route for cyclists or a "cycle facility". Or your clothing, lighting position in the road etc.

If the crash does not involve an injury to the top part of your head, I suspect the insurers won't play the helmet card. As far as I'm aware no insurer has yet got away with the helmet argument in a UK court. Certainly that was the position a couple of years ago, as there were enough expert witnesses to pour enough doubt on whether a helmet would have made a difference in all the cases which had been tried.
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Cunobelin
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Re: Vote for your "Bone Dome" now!

Post by Cunobelin »

fatboy wrote:
petercook80 wrote:Why do you wear one if as you say a 'lump of polystyrene wont protect you'. If you really believe that then why bother? (I think thats a fair question).

(I wear one because I believe it would 'help'.)


It is a fair question and here is my answer (sorry it's taken me so long to find your question). I think that helmets may have a benefit for the slow speeds and low height drops that a child might experience when they fall off therefore as I want my children to wear one then I have to. When my kids are older I may stop. I still an sceptical that if I were to fall off at 20mph whether they'd be much use.

I hope that that answers it for you.

Chris



... and also describes the reason thatthere is such a high potential benefit fo helmets in other groups - including most pedestrian falls, especially in the elderly
George Riches
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Post by George Riches »

Here's a case where it might of helped if the pedestrian had been wearing a helmet:
Warning after toddler fractured skull
A better idea in this case would have been a proper cycle lane or track and not a cheapskate shared pavement.
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Cunobelin
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Post by Cunobelin »

George Riches wrote:Here's a case where it might of helped if the pedestrian had been wearing a helmet:
Warning after toddler fractured skull
A better idea in this case would have been a proper cycle lane or track and not a cheapskate shared pavement.


Actually that was a refreshing article!

To actually recognise that the cyclist had done nothing wrong, wasn't travelling too fast ... however the answer is amazing:

"However, we could look at some extra signs, both on poles and on the surface, to raise awareness of this particular part of the cycle path."



How is a sign going to raise the awareness of a three year old?
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meic
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Post by meic »

I too am a recent convert to cycling from the world of motorcycling.
A BMW but not from pre 1945 :shock:

The nicest thing about going on my bicycle instead of my motorcycle is that I do not have to get kitted up in horrible heavy leathers and a stinky helmet.
There are other benefits which I found later. :)

So if you are hoping to encourage cycling you would have more sucsess (in my opinion) if you drop the helmet idea.
It is possibly just another hurdle to overcome, more expense, more inconveniance etc.
If people want to wear a helmet, they will.
Yma o Hyd
Pete Owens
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Post by Pete Owens »

Cunobelin wrote:
George Riches wrote:Here's a case where it might of helped if the pedestrian had been wearing a helmet:
Warning after toddler fractured skull
A better idea in this case would have been a proper cycle lane or track and not a cheapskate shared pavement.


Actually that was a refreshing article!

To actually recognise that the cyclist had done nothing wrong, wasn't travelling too fast ... however the answer is amazing:



Not at all - it is entirely consistent wih dominent mind set that the more vulnerable victim is always to blame in any crash - by being in the "path" of a vehicle. The cyclist was simply behaving in the bullying manner towards pedestrians that Clarkson et al advocate motorists take towards cyclists who have the audacity to be riding on the road rather than use a cycle facility.

If you are riding in in such a way that you cannot avoid hitting a toddler that strolls into your path then you are going too fast for the conditions. And if you fail to anticipate that this is a likely to happen if you see a toddler on one side of your path with parents on the other then you are failing to demonstrate due care and attention.



"However, we could look at some extra signs, both on poles and on the surface, to raise awareness of this particular part of the cycle path."


How is a sign going to raise the awareness of a three year old?


Quite. The duty of care was with the cyclist.
Pete Owens
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Post by Pete Owens »

George Riches wrote:Here's a case where it might of helped if the pedestrian had been wearing a helmet:
Warning after toddler fractured skull
A better idea in this case would have been a proper cycle lane or track and not a cheapskate shared pavement.


... and a better idea still would be to abolish the cycle path altogether and for cyclists to ride on the carriageway where it is safer for everybody.
Pete Owens
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Re: Helmets

Post by Pete Owens »

Firebird wrote:My apologies folks. I thought that I was encouraging people to return to the roads on two wheels who like myself have been absent from the saddle or have not ridden at all.

And you think that telling everybody that cycling is so very very dangerous that you need to kit yourself out with protective head gear is going to achieve that???? Do you imagine that tobacco companies voluntarily stick health warnings on their products as a marketing strategy?
Whenever there has been a serious effort to promote cycle helmets this has resulted in a decline in cycling.
I had no idea that there were so many facists.

Is this a new entry to the dictionary:
facist n. One who believes that cycling is a normal routine method of transportation that does not require any specialised protective equipment. Not to be confused with:
fascist n. supporter of extreme right wing politics.

I thought cycling was an activity that "everyman" could engage in,

No, that is what the rest of us think. You appear to think that it is some kind of extreme sport for which protective equipment is required.

however it seems there is a lot of snobbery and elitism in it.

I always find rational argument is so much more persuasive than name calling.

Obviously you look down on learners who are trying to get started.

How is not telling someone to wear a helmet “looking down” on them?

As none of you have actually seen the films yet really you are not qualified to comment on the angle I am taking.

We are only commenting on the bit where you posted:
” I really do believe that people should be encouraged to use cycle helmets, and have put this in the film.”
Now, it is true, some others did jump to the assumption that you were singling out cyclists for this treatment, while I did ask if all the pedestrians (ie those at a slightly greater risk of injury) in your film would also be helmeted. If everyone has got it wrong and your film advocates that everyone should wear a helmet all the time whatever they are doing all you have to do is say. However, if your film is claiming that cycling is so much more dangerous than other forms of transport that you need to wear a helmet then what you are doing is promoting those other safer forms of transport.

So tell us… What angle are you taking wrt helmets?
Remember the films are aimed at people starting off their lives as cyclists, and the films are about using bikes for daily travelling and family outings.

Quite, so something that is a perfectly normal safe activity that does not require any specialised clothing or equipment other than a bike.

They are not aimed at competitive or sports cyclists- if we get people using bikes again then they can turn to more competent and sporty minded cyclists for advice later.


And if you were aiming at that market then there would be less of an issue with promoting helmets. Racing or mountain biking are risky activities for which an element of danger are part of the attraction and shed loads of expensive specialised kit, including helmets, are a good idea.

If you were promoting alpine mountaineering then a helmet is a must, but if you turned up on a pedestrian forum suggesting that helmets were needed to walk to the local shops I suspect you would get a much more robust response than you did here.
kwackers
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Post by kwackers »

Pete Owens wrote:... and a better idea still would be to abolish the cycle path altogether and for cyclists to ride on the carriageway where it is safer for everybody.


Which is great if all cyclists are fit and capable of dealing with traffic. But there are a lot out there that aren't and for physical or psychological reasons have problems dealing with it.

Since there are many paths that it's perfectly legal to cycle down (and I do use these on my commute and utility cycling because they can save me a lot of time and a couple of very dodgy bits of road) I'd suggest it'd be better if people simply learned to share the space properly.

Personally I find pedestrians very responsive to an "excuse me" and "good morning".
aesmith
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Post by aesmith »

bovlomov wrote:Finally there are those who tell me that I should wear a helmet and those who campaign for a change in the law - some of them using public funds.

Whether or not these campaigners are publicly funded, it it perfectly reasonable to challenge their claims.
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