Helmets Anyone?

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bovlomov
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Post by bovlomov »

aesmith wrote:
bovlomov wrote:Finally there are those who tell me that I should wear a helmet and those who campaign for a change in the law - some of them using public funds.

Whether or not these campaigners are publicly funded, it it perfectly reasonable to challenge their claims.

Sorry! That's what I meant but didn't make clear.
MartinC
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Post by MartinC »

Pete Owens wrote:Quite. The duty of care was with the cyclist.


When I read the article it seemed that the cyclist was a child. How does the duty of care work in this case?
iaincullen
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Post by iaincullen »

MartinC wrote:
Pete Owens wrote:Quite. The duty of care was with the cyclist.


When I read the article it seemed that the cyclist was a child. How does the duty of care work in this case?


With the adult involved who was in charge of the toddler. The way to prevent this particular incident (as I think has been said already) would have been for the adult in charge of the toddler to be walking beside him and not on the other side of the cycle lane part of the shared footway.
This is like a parent walking on one side of a road while their child is on the pavement on the other side.

That said without knowing the exact layout of the location and the amount of pedestrians and cyclists that use it and so on I'd be reluctant to blame anybody. Maybe cyclists are infrequent and therefore weren't anticipated by the mother.

The mother actually hit the nail on the head with ""It is a bad place for the cycle path"
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Cunobelin
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Post by Cunobelin »

Pete Owens wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
George Riches wrote:Here's a case where it might of helped if the pedestrian had been wearing a helmet:
Warning after toddler fractured skull
A better idea in this case would have been a proper cycle lane or track and not a cheapskate shared pavement.


Actually that was a refreshing article!

To actually recognise that the cyclist had done nothing wrong, wasn't travelling too fast ... however the answer is amazing:



Not at all - it is entirely consistent wih dominent mind set that the more vulnerable victim is always to blame in any crash - by being in the "path" of a vehicle. The cyclist was simply behaving in the bullying manner towards pedestrians that Clarkson et al advocate motorists take towards cyclists who have the audacity to be riding on the road rather than use a cycle facility.

If you are riding in in such a way that you cannot avoid hitting a toddler that strolls into your path then you are going too fast for the conditions. And if you fail to anticipate that this is a likely to happen if you see a toddler on one side of your path with parents on the other then you are failing to demonstrate due care and attention.


Which is another viewpoint....

You are making a lot of assumptions that the mother (who was there at the time) has not.

There is such a thing as responsibility. I have had pedestrians who are absolutely safe on a pavement and with no indication walk into the side of my bike as I passed - there is no case of negligence, going to fast or failing to brake - apart from actually never moving at all, there is nothing I could have done to prevent this.

As the mother is quite happy in this case, I think I will accept her interpretation rather than an unwarranted and unsubstantiated allegation of bullying and carelessness on the part of the cyclist






"However, we could look at some extra signs, both on poles and on the surface, to raise awareness of this particular part of the cycle path."


How is a sign going to raise the awareness of a three year old?


Quite. The duty of care was with the cyclist.
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Cunobelin
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Post by Cunobelin »

Pete Owens wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
George Riches wrote:Here's a case where it might of helped if the pedestrian had been wearing a helmet:
Warning after toddler fractured skull
A better idea in this case would have been a proper cycle lane or track and not a cheapskate shared pavement.


Actually that was a refreshing article!

To actually recognise that the cyclist had done nothing wrong, wasn't travelling too fast ... however the answer is amazing:



Not at all - it is entirely consistent wih dominent mind set that the more vulnerable victim is always to blame in any crash - by being in the "path" of a vehicle. The cyclist was simply behaving in the bullying manner towards pedestrians that Clarkson et al advocate motorists take towards cyclists who have the audacity to be riding on the road rather than use a cycle facility.

If you are riding in in such a way that you cannot avoid hitting a toddler that strolls into your path then you are going too fast for the conditions. And if you fail to anticipate that this is a likely to happen if you see a toddler on one side of your path with parents on the other then you are failing to demonstrate due care and attention.








"However, we could look at some extra signs, both on poles and on the surface, to raise awareness of this particular part of the cycle path."


How is a sign going to raise the awareness of a three year old?


Quite. The duty of care was with the cyclist.



Which is another viewpoint....

You are making a lot of assumptions that the mother (who was there at the time) has not.

There is such a thing as responsibility. I have had pedestrians who are absolutely safe on a pavement and with no indication walk into the side of my bike as I passed - there is no case of negligence, going to fast or failing to brake - apart from actually never moving at all, there is nothing I could have done to prevent this.

As the mother is quite happy in this case, I think I will accept her interpretation rather than an unwarranted and unsubstantiated allegation of bullying and carelessness on the part of the cyclist
thirdcrank
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Post by thirdcrank »

It's rare these days that I visit the parallel universe of helmet threads but I've just been taken by time travel back to the Summer of 1966.

In those far off student days I had a holiday job selling ice cream. I've never been a fast driver, even in my youth but one day a child suddenly ran out in front of me from a garden path. As I look back I am pretty sure I was not ringing the chimes and the child's appearance was unexpected. I braked hard but lost sight of the child - the Bedford Dormobile had quite a high scuttle as I remember. The braking threw forward everything in the van - cornets, wafers, scoop, choc / raspberry sauce, 99's, cash box, the lot. I jumped out fearing the worse, but I had stopped well clear of the child. A woman who had been walking on the other side of the road ran over and began screaming to the child's mother, who had by then appeared, that she had seen it all and that I had been driving like a loony etc. The child's mother just remarked that her child should not have run straight into the road and she was glad I had been able to stop OK. A valuable lesson in the fallibity of witnesses and conclusion jumpers.
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meic
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Post by meic »

My interpretation of the accident is that it was a collision between children in an area which is set aside to be safe for children to play and cycle in.
If you have children you accept that these things happen in shared play areas.
It could well be worth learning and seperating the children on bikes from the children off bikes more thoroughly, with the benefit of hindsight.
To try and blame either child is ridiculous as it appears the parents involved can well see.
I can easily see myself as the parent of either child watching helplessly as the accident approached. Unless one of the children or its parents had been acting blatantly recklessly it would just be put down to part of children growing up.
After the accident I can see the parents of either child saying

"I should not have let him cycle where there were young children around"
"I should not have let him run loose when there was a cycle path there"

but the area appears to have been designated for both sets of activities.
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Pete Owens
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Post by Pete Owens »

Cunobelin wrote:You are making a lot of assumptions that the mother (who was there at the time) has not.


On the contrary I start from first principles rather than accepting the cultural dominance of vehicles.

If you were to hit someone with anything other than a vehicle then it would be entirely uncontroversial that you were at fault.

If you were to operate any potentially dangerous equipment in a public place then you would be entirely responsible for ensuring that no member of the public came to any harm. I see no reason to make an exception for vehicles.


There is such a thing as responsibility.


Indeed, and in my view that increases with the amount of kinetic energy you bring to a situation (ie the potential to cause damage)

Pedestrians are soft slow moving objects that can bump into things without causing any harm, thus bear very little responsibility. We are also very well adapted to avoiding bumping in to slow moving objects so pedestrians are able to move around freely in all directions without any regulation whatsoever.

Once you start to use vehicles to move at speed then you have an increasing potential to do harm and a thus an increasing degree of responsibility to avoid colliding with things. your momentum means that you have less ability to change course in the event of the unexpected so you need to ensure that there is enough clear space in front of you. Now of course cycles are very much less dangerous than motor vehicles so the degree of responsibility is nothing like a great as that for drivers.



I have had pedestrians who are absolutely safe on a pavement and with no indication walk into the side of my bike as I passed - there is no case of negligence, going to fast or failing to brake - apart from actually never moving at all, there is nothing I could have done to prevent this.



Yes there is; don't ride so close to pedestrians.

However, even I would suggest that in the case of a pedestrian bumping into a vehicle it is the pedestrian that is at fault.



As the mother is quite happy in this case, I think I will accept her interpretation rather than an unwarranted and unsubstantiated allegation of bullying and carelessness on the part of the cyclist


If he was riding carefully he would not have hit the toddler, period. Given the width of the shared use path he should not have been passing pedestrians at any more than a fast walking speed.

OK , I can accept that if he was a child himself it was probably was not a bullying attitude, more that he was led astray by the recklessness of the designers of the facilility into believing that riding on the pavement close to pedestrians was a sensible thing to do.
Pete Owens
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Post by Pete Owens »

thirdcrank wrote:I've never been a fast driver, even in my youth but one day a child suddenly ran out in front of me from a garden path.


You will probably have been approaching the scene at at least five times the speed of the child, yet you describe your speed as "slow" and the child's movements as "sudden".
thirdcrank
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Post by thirdcrank »

The appearance of the child was sudden in that the garden path was completely hidden from the road by an overgrown privet edge. Obviously, I knew the house was there - it was a council housing estate - but these places have historically been built in the UK with roads outside every house. Also obviously, when I say I was driving slowly, I meant that I was driving slowly relative to the speed of typical motor traffic, partly because of the type of street. I'm not sure what sort of speed a typical under 10 year old my run at and I've no idea of the speed of the child in question. It's now a long time ago but I think I was driving at well below 15 mph. slow enough in those circumstances to have been able to stop sharply without losing control, as I did. They do say, although I should not want to put it to the test, that pedestrian injuries are much less sever at those sorts of speed.

(And that's it for me on helmet threads for another years or so....)
MartinC
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Post by MartinC »

Pete, the logical conclusion from your argument is that children shouldn't be allowed to ride bicycles. This doesn't seem reasonable to me.
Pete Owens
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Post by Pete Owens »

Not at all.

I did point out that the degree of responsibility needed was nowhere near near as serious as for motor vehicles, where the consequences of getting things wrong are much more severe.

Children are capapable of acting with sufficient care and responsibility to be able to be put in charge of bikes. They do need to be made aware that they should take care to avoid hitting people and that they need to take particular care if they are riding in hazardous locations, such as shared use paths - and they do need to be told when they are acting recklessly.
Pete Owens
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Post by Pete Owens »

kwackers wrote:
Pete Owens wrote:... and a better idea still would be to abolish the cycle path altogether and for cyclists to ride on the carriageway where it is safer for everybody.


Which is great if all cyclists are fit and capable of dealing with traffic. But there are a lot out there that aren't and for physical or psychological reasons have problems dealing with it.

.


and if they are not up to the mental and physical challenges of the carriageway, how are they expected to cope with the greater levels of skill and physical effort needed to use cycle paths?

I think that promoting cycle paths is every bit as harmful to the efforts to encourage cycling as is promoting helmets. In both case the advocates tend to exagerate the risks of normal utility cycling in order to justify their supposed solutions. In both cases there have been recent attempts to make their use compulsory, which the cycling community has had to spend a great deal of effort to resist. In both cases, non-use is used by insurers to attempt to wriggle out of claims. In both cases, highway authorities promote these as an alternative to improving conditions for cyclists on the road.

At least helmets don't actually significantly increase the risks of cycling, or challelnge the legitimacy of cycling on the roads in the way cycle paths do.
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Cunobelin
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Post by Cunobelin »

Personally I have no problems with cycle paths as they can be a superb facility.

Looking at examples like the Bristol - Bath, our local railway route and some others I could name - they are a refreshing and worthwhile addition (note that - an addition) to road based routes.

What we need to do is set minimum standards of design to prevent the ridiculous farcilities that some Councils are allowed to get away with.
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DaveP
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Post by DaveP »

Cunobelin wrote:Personally I have no problems with cycle paths as they can be a superb facility.


Especially along sea fronts! If theres one place where I would like to be able to relax a bit and enjoy the view while cycling, thats it. For me at least.
It does rather sound as if this incident happened in a location where that wouldnt be an appropriate way to proceed, though!
I wonder, also, what the mothers response would have been if the cyclist had been an adult. And before anyone jumps on me, that isnt intended to be seen as criticism of the mother.
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