Helmets Anyone?

[petercook80]

Unfortunately, as part of the scheme, they were trying to raise money for "essential safety equipment such as helmets and high-vis clothing" Bah.

seems fine to me

[Dean]

Unfortunately, as part of the scheme, they were trying to raise money for "essential safety equipment such as helmets and high-vis clothing" Bah.

seems fine to me

I'll see if I can find the free sheet so that you can send them a donation

[Tony]

I also remember reading in a bike mag that there had been a great natural experiment because for 100 years (or so) GPO postmen on bikes had never worn helmets, yet they had no higher incidence of head injuries. Is this folk myth? Does anyone know the facts, (i.e incidence of head injuries in postmen on the job, by year) because it would be an important addition to the debate on cycle helmets.

A similar natural experiment has occured in Australia and NZ which saw large increases in helmet wearing in the early 90's, after bringing in laws banning helmetless cycling. Head injury rates have not changed (Robinson BMJ 2006). Another is Hewsons research in 2006 (Traffic Injury Reports) which looked at head injury rates between boy and girls as girls started to wear helmets more than boys in the 90's and 00's. Again head injury rates unaffected by cycle helmet wearing.

This implies if cycle helmets occassionally save lives (as some would have us believe) they must also be causing lives to be lost!

Actually, in Oz after the introduction of compulsion, injury RATES rose rather sharply.

[Cunobelin]

I also remember reading in a bike mag that there had been a great natural experiment because for 100 years (or so) GPO postmen on bikes had never worn helmets, yet they had no higher incidence of head injuries. Is this folk myth? Does anyone know the facts, (i.e incidence of head injuries in postmen on the job, by year) because it would be an important addition to the debate on cycle helmets.

A similar natural experiment has occured in Australia and NZ which saw large increases in helmet wearing in the early 90's, after bringing in laws banning helmetless cycling. Head injury rates have not changed (Robinson BMJ 2006). Another is Hewsons research in 2006 (Traffic Injury Reports) which looked at head injury rates between boy and girls as girls started to wear helmets more than boys in the 90's and 00's. Again head injury rates unaffected by cycle helmet wearing.

This implies if cycle helmets occassionally save lives (as some would have us believe) they must also be causing lives to be lost!

Actually, in Oz after the introduction of compulsion, injury RATES rose rather sharply.

Its even worse than that.......

The introduction of helmets was part of a whole raft of legislation including clamping down on uninsured drivers, poorly maintained vehicles, speeding, bad driving and drink driving.

So theoretically there should have been a decrease in injuries to vulnerable road users as an effect of these actions.

The fact that there was no decrease in head injuries despite safer roads and helmet legislation is a clear demonstration of how little effect there is at population levels.

[gate owner]

the thing is after reading all the thread that the basic thing is being missed the biggest saftey feature for cars would be a 300mm spike in the middle of the steering wheel for motorcycles make them ride in shorts and t-shirts for cyclists make them ride in lycra without helmets

in essence i am saying the safer you make something the more risk people will take

if you have abs on your car you will brake later because you think you will not skid

if you ride a motorcycle you will not hurt yourself when you crash because you wear full leathers

you will not cause serious injury to yourself if you wear a cycle helmet because you have been told the figures support this

in fact if we are treated as adults we will make the right decision

i say this as a:- motorcycle rider,cyle rider and car driver

[reohn2]

the thing is after reading all the thread that the basic thing is being missed the biggest saftey feature for cars would be a 300mm spike in the middle of the steering wheel for motorcycles make them ride in shorts and t-shirts for cyclists make them ride in lycra without helmets

in essence i am saying the safer you make something the more risk people will take

if you have abs on your car you will brake later because you think you will not skid

if you ride a motorcycle you will not hurt yourself when you crash because you wear full leathers

you will not cause serious injury to yourself if you wear a cycle helmet because you have been told the figures support this

in fact if we are treated as adults we will make the right decision

i say this as a:- motorcycle rider,cyle rider and car driver

Its not so often I say this but the above statement is, frankly, rubbish IMO.

[gate owner]

thats the beauty of it you are allowed to have an opinion if the country keeps going down the route of more and more health and safety soon we will be riding in inflatable suits like big air bags. already they are deveolping air bags for motorcycles and crash suits that inflate to protect your neck.

if you use certain types of clipless pedals you can not fit reflectors to them you are then breaking the law if the health and safety police get that bee in their bonnet and people start being fined for the offence where will it stop once the h&s ball starts rolling

[reohn2]

thats the beauty of it you are allowed to have an opinion if the country keeps going down the route of more and more health and safety soon we will be riding in inflatable suits like big air bags. already they are deveolping air bags for motorcycles and crash suits that inflate to protect your neck.

if you use certain types of clipless pedals you can not fit reflectors to them you are then breaking the law if the health and safety police get that bee in their bonnet and people start being fined for the offence where will it stop once the h&s ball starts rolling

Remember the poll tax?

[Phil_Lee]

the thing is after reading all the thread that the basic thing is being missed the biggest saftey feature for cars would be a 300mm spike in the middle of the steering wheel for motorcycles make them ride in shorts and t-shirts for cyclists make them ride in lycra without helmets

in essence i am saying the safer you make something the more risk people will take

if you have abs on your car you will brake later because you think you will not skid

if you ride a motorcycle you will not hurt yourself when you crash because you wear full leathers

you will not cause serious injury to yourself if you wear a cycle helmet because you have been told the figures support this

in fact if we are treated as adults we will make the right decision

i say this as a:- motorcycle rider,cycle rider and car driver

Its not so often I say this but the above statement is, frankly, rubbish IMO.

Looked absolutely spot on to me.
Can you find any valid data to support your assertion that it is rubbish?

[aesmith]

We were looking at an event. A time limited ride on closed road, not a race. Their very first rule makes helmets compulsory. How ridiculous. There's no safety justification, so presumably this is because they think they may be sued if someone gets hurt while not wearing a helmet.

[reohn2]

the thing is after reading all the thread that the basic thing is being missed the biggest saftey feature for cars would be a 300mm spike in the middle of the steering wheel for motorcycles make them ride in shorts and t-shirts for cyclists make them ride in lycra without helmets

in essence i am saying the safer you make something the more risk people will take

if you have abs on your car you will brake later because you think you will not skid

if you ride a motorcycle you will not hurt yourself when you crash because you wear full leathers

you will not cause serious injury to yourself if you wear a cycle helmet because you have been told the figures support this

in fact if we are treated as adults we will make the right decision

i say this as a:- motorcycle rider,cycle rider and car driver

Its not so often I say this but the above statement is, frankly, rubbish IMO.

Looked absolutely spot on to me.
Can you find any valid data to support your assertion that it is rubbish?

Can you find any that doesn't?

[Tony]

Hmmmm. I read the post from gate owner as saying (a) there is risk compensation behaviour. True, but not for everyone.
(b) If we are "treated as adults" we will all make sensible decisions.
Palpable nonsense.

[ianr1950]

We were looking at an event. A time limited ride on closed road, not a race. Their very first rule makes helmets compulsory. How ridiculous. There's no safety justification, so presumably this is because they think they may be sued if someone gets hurt while not wearing a helmet.

Unfortunately in todays compensation culture society and with more and more people always blaming someone else I understand why organisers do insist in rules like that.
I am not saying I agree with it but when you carry out the risk assessment for such events you have to see the risk as it is and if you don't actually put it down in writing the authorites would probably not agree to closing the roads so therefore the event would not take place.
You have the choice whether to take part but you just have to abide by whatever rules the organisers stipulate.

[bovlomov]

(b) If we are "treated as adults" we will all make sensible decisions.
Palpable nonsense.

Not really. The late Hans Modermans' work is still not utterly proved, but there is sufficient evidence to support his approach to traffic management. It certainly isn't 'palpable nonsense'.

Though whether it is 'treating people like adults' or just understanding human nature, I'm not sure. It is not sensible to overload motorists with so many instructions that they are no longer able to make rational decisions.

My feeling - with some evidence to back it up - is that falling levels of pedestrian fatalities have only been achieved by putting pedestrians in cars. To get people out of cars requires that the pedestrian environment is not hostile.

We can put pedestrians into pens, put fences along the roads etc, or we can try what Kensington & Chelsea have done (with promising early results): Shared spaces.

Don't dismiss it.

[bovlomov]

Simon Jenkins in today's Guardian, on helmets, traffic management, safety legislation and shared spaces.