Cycling UK Forum

ipswichcycler wrote:....Also I can’t see the inner of a pitch outer first tent can stay that dry when you actually get in. If you have been cycling in the rain you yourself are wet before you climb into the tent. Surely you take a lot of water in with you?

I didn't have that problem. Panniers and gear go in the porches (not in the inner). Rain jacket comes off and stays in the porches and legs in shorts not to wet as to cause issues.

Ian

ipswichcycler wrote: Surely you take a lot of water in with you?

No, you develop a meticulous practice of making sure that everything even remotely wet is left outside the inner, whether in the porch or even outside.

Which is why "campcraft" probably wins over tent design/quality in the end.

Psamathe wrote:

pjclinch wrote:

Ant... wrote:Whatever you get just make sure that its not one where you put the inner up first like my Robens Lodge 2, as if its raining it fills the inside before you can get the outer in position.

I don't personally like inner-first pitches but the number of happy users, including in rainy places, suggests it's not the deal breaker it might be......

My month with the Hubba Hubba required a few pitches in the rain. I'd got used to pitching so was pretty quick but the inner still got wet (made worse as the seams leaked after pitching as the rain continued.

Ian

I know we've done this before...
I like to be up and away early, that means 4 out of 5 times packing the tent away with dew/condensation on it even if it hasn't rained in the night. So if I want to avoid a saturated inner packing it together with the fly is a bad idea. My TN inner will stand a light shower for the minute or so it takes to get the fly over it and in 240 pitches (estimated - 20 @ year X 12) I can only recall four times I've put it up in a downpour, though there's a few more where I've sheltered till the rain stops or eases off. I was reluctant to buy an inner first tent, now if I ever replace it (having just bought a new fly I'm hoping it'll outlast my camping days) it'll be on my list of requirements.

back to the OP - have you had a look at Exped tents? I've only seen a couple, but have very much liked what I saw and the owners were enthusiastic about them.

Sweep wrote:I have several tents - none have a dedicated footprint (they are always overpriced) but I use the same bit of blue tarp from B&Q for them all.
Weighs nothing I am going to bother about - cost about a fiver.
I'd just pop out and buy such a thing if I were you.

If I know I'll be using proper campsites which will have a reasonable surface, I'll take a lightweight sheet of waterproof ripstop material to keep the tent clean. If I don't know where I'll be camping, I'll use the expensive TN dedicated footprint. It isn't the same as a bit of plastic sheeting, it's a very close weave fabric with a PU (or something like) coating on one side. I'm sure it isn't impenetrable, but nothing has come through mine and I've sometimes discovered in a morning how poorly the site was chosen in the dark or pitch somewhere undesirable through lack of choice. I haven't ever considered it overpriced.

PH wrote:

Psamathe wrote:

pjclinch wrote:
I don't personally like inner-first pitches but the number of happy users, including in rainy places, suggests it's not the deal breaker it might be......

My month with the Hubba Hubba required a few pitches in the rain. I'd got used to pitching so was pretty quick but the inner still got wet (made worse as the seams leaked after pitching as the rain continued.

Ian

I know we've done this before...
I like to be up and away early, that means 4 out of 5 times packing the tent away with dew/condensation on it even if it hasn't rained in the night. So if I want to avoid a saturated inner packing it together with the fly is a bad idea. My TN inner will stand a light shower for the minute or so it takes to get the fly over it and in 240 pitches (estimated - 20 @ year X 12) I can only recall four times I've put it up in a downpour, though there's a few more where I've sheltered till the rain stops or eases off. I was reluctant to buy an inner first tent, now if I ever replace it (having just bought a new fly I'm hoping it'll outlast my camping days) it'll be on my list of requirements.

I'm also early departing and have the same condensation/packing issues, though my (limited) experience is that inner first is not the only solution (depends on tent), probably unrelated. Last year I has a Nordisk tunnel tent and that was a "pitch together" or fly first. The "normal"/standard use is to leave inner and fly attached to each other and pitch/pack as one. But to pack when wet you could easily remove the inner while leaving the fly pitched (easy, only a few hooks). So pitch fly 1st then easy to pitch the inner inside the fly.

With my Hilleberg (MSR replacement) which is a leave the inner and fly attached and pitch/pack as one - packing it wet did not result in a soaked inner. I expected it to but 1st time soaking wet in the morning I was in a hurry and forecast good to dry later so packed away as one wet and inner was fine on pitching. The month with the Hilleberg with early starts only once did the inner get wet from being packed away wet.

Ian

Psamathe wrote:[
With my Hilleberg (MSR replacement) which is a leave the inner and fly attached and pitch/pack as one - packing it wet did not result in a soaked inner. I expected it to but 1st time soaking wet in the morning I was in a hurry and forecast good to dry later so packed away as one wet and inner was fine on pitching. The month with the Hilleberg with early starts only once did the inner get wet from being packed away wet.
Ian

OK, your experience is your experience, but I'm struggling to grasp how it's possible to pack something wet next to something dry without the water transferring. Of course, it's may be that it just drys quickly once up, or it simply isn't a problem, or not an issue to get concerned about, but wet is wet, whether it's come off the fly or fallen out of the sky.

PH wrote:

Psamathe wrote:[
With my Hilleberg (MSR replacement) which is a leave the inner and fly attached and pitch/pack as one - packing it wet did not result in a soaked inner. I expected it to but 1st time soaking wet in the morning I was in a hurry and forecast good to dry later so packed away as one wet and inner was fine on pitching. The month with the Hilleberg with early starts only once did the inner get wet from being packed away wet.
Ian

OK, your experience is your experience, but I'm struggling to grasp how it's possible to pack something wet next to something dry without the water transferring. Of course, it's may be that it just drys quickly once up, or it simply isn't a problem, or not an issue to get concerned about, but wet is wet, whether it's come off the fly or fallen out of the sky.

Me as well!. Early on tour this summer before I got the Hilleberg (still had MSR) was chatting to a German cyclist with a one person Hilleberg and it was wet (rain) and when I noticed him pitching as one (inner and fly attached) I asked him and he shrugged like he'd never even thought about it and said he'd never had a problem.

I know little about tent fabric so my only guess (and a complete guess) is that the fly is waterproof so dew and rain on the outside does not move through the fly to the inner when packed up (except maybe small areas round the edge?). But condensation would be on the inner side of the fly so pack away with condensation and the fly would get soaking wet (as that condensation does nt have to pass through the fly to get on the inner).

But that theory is a complete guess so please anybody feel free to correct me and teach me about these fabrics.

Ian

horizon wrote:

ipswichcycler wrote: Surely you take a lot of water in with you?

No, you develop a meticulous practice of making sure that everything even remotely wet is left outside the inner, whether in the porch or even outside.

Which is why "campcraft" probably wins over tent design/quality in the end.

Yes, i sometimes leave my ortliebs outside. They can take it.

PH wrote: and in 240 pitches (estimated - 20 @ year X 12) I can only recall four times I've put it up in a downpour, though there's a few more where I've sheltered till the rain stops or eases off.

+ 1

Let's say you want pitch your tent at 6.00 pm every day and you want 15 minutes to pitch, 15 minutes to unpack and sort. It would have to rain precisely at that time. Given that many people cycle and camp in warm sunny countries in the summer and that even in the UK it rarely rains all day, it is hard to believe that putting your tent up in the rain is a problem. It does happen (I've faced rain at pitching time) but most often rain is threatening or just finished or just not there. In the meantime there might be some other shelter where you can cook and wait. I'm not saying it isn't an issue (especially in the UK) but in practice it isn't as frequent as some might believe.

Psamathe wrote:

PH wrote:

Psamathe wrote:[
With my Hilleberg (MSR replacement) which is a leave the inner and fly attached and pitch/pack as one - packing it wet did not result in a soaked inner. I expected it to but 1st time soaking wet in the morning I was in a hurry and forecast good to dry later so packed away as one wet and inner was fine on pitching. The month with the Hilleberg with early starts only once did the inner get wet from being packed away wet.
Ian

OK, your experience is your experience, but I'm struggling to grasp how it's possible to pack something wet next to something dry without the water transferring. Of course, it's may be that it just drys quickly once up, or it simply isn't a problem, or not an issue to get concerned about, but wet is wet, whether it's come off the fly or fallen out of the sky.

Me as well!. Early on tour this summer before I got the Hilleberg (still had MSR) was chatting to a German cyclist with a one person Hilleberg and it was wet (rain) and when I noticed him pitching as one (inner and fly attached) I asked him and he shrugged like he'd never even thought about it and said he'd never had a problem.

I know little about tent fabric so my only guess (and a complete guess) is that the fly is waterproof so dew and rain on the outside does not move through the fly to the inner when packed up (except maybe small areas round the edge?). But condensation would be on the inner side of the fly so pack away with condensation and the fly would get soaking wet (as that condensation does nt have to pass through the fly to get on the inner).

But that theory is a complete guess so please anybody feel free to correct me and teach me about these fabrics.

Ian

I have a Hilleberg Akto which I used for a through hike of the Appalachian Trail. At times I packed it up as one. If it was cold and wet the inside of the fly would be soaked, and this was especially so if it had been pitched on grass.

When reaching camp and pitching again the outside of the inner tent would itself be pretty wet, but it never transferred to the inside. In fact, in all the time I used it the only time water got inside the inner was when I left the two small ventilation flaps open on the fly during violent storms and rain hit the ground and bounced in and on to the inner. That then eventually wetted out and a small dribble trickled down.

As far as comparing the Akto to all the many varied other tents on the trail, it was, amongst the people I hiked with, the only one not to let a lot of water in during storms.

The downsides were that it was on the heavy side compared to some of the others and was very warm (too warm) during the nights in the summer due to only having a small piece of netting as ventilation for the inner. Opening the 'door' of the inner mostly wasn't an option because of mozzies. The converse of that though was it was noticeably warmer inside the inner on cold nights.

The campcraft mentioned above came into play for those who did get wet though - knowing how to keep the important stuff away from the water and then taking the time to dry it out over a bush or whatever at lunchtime. Generally speaking when hiking in the rain everything except the sleeping bag, food and camp clothes would get wet anyway so just had to be dealt with.

For me, I was paranoid about getting my stuff wet and that was why I chose a hopefully bombproof tent. Knowing what I do now though I would be happier going a bit more lightweight.

PH wrote:

Sweep wrote:I have several tents - none have a dedicated footprint (they are always overpriced) but I use the same bit of blue tarp from B&Q for them all.
Weighs nothing I am going to bother about - cost about a fiver.
I'd just pop out and buy such a thing if I were you.

If I know I'll be using proper campsites which will have a reasonable surface, I'll take a lightweight sheet of waterproof ripstop material to keep the tent clean. If I don't know where I'll be camping, I'll use the expensive TN dedicated footprint. It isn't the same as a bit of plastic sheeting, it's a very close weave fabric with a PU (or something like) coating on one side. I'm sure it isn't impenetrable, but nothing has come through mine and I've sometimes discovered in a morning how poorly the site was chosen in the dark or pitch somewhere undesirable through lack of choice. I haven't ever considered it overpriced.

Your call but i don't see the b&q tarp lacking in any way. After all it's usually used by builders and painters and decorators, often clomping around on it in boots.

Sweep wrote:

PH wrote:

Sweep wrote:I have several tents - none have a dedicated footprint (they are always overpriced) but I use the same bit of blue tarp from B&Q for them all.
Weighs nothing I am going to bother about - cost about a fiver.
I'd just pop out and buy such a thing if I were you.

If I know I'll be using proper campsites which will have a reasonable surface, I'll take a lightweight sheet of waterproof ripstop material to keep the tent clean. If I don't know where I'll be camping, I'll use the expensive TN dedicated footprint. It isn't the same as a bit of plastic sheeting, it's a very close weave fabric with a PU (or something like) coating on one side. I'm sure it isn't impenetrable, but nothing has come through mine and I've sometimes discovered in a morning how poorly the site was chosen in the dark or pitch somewhere undesirable through lack of choice. I haven't ever considered it overpriced.

Your call but i don't see the b&q tarp lacking in any way. After all it's usually used by builders and painters and decorators, often clomping around on it in boots.

I bought a proper footprint for my Akto, but I also have a Nallo 2 which I bought second-hand. The previous owner made a footprint for that out of an orange survival bag, opened up and cut to shape, it was fine.

All-in-one/fly first pitching and damp inner tents...

My old Saunders is a fly-first pitch. You start by pitching the outer, get inside and hang the inner. To strike it, start by taking the inner down, from the inside, out of the rain, and of course you can pack it separately to the fly.

My Hille's are all in one, and that's what I generally do, but there's nothing to stop me doing it like the Saunders if that's what I want to do. It would take longer, so I don't bother is the main thing. But if you pack up a condensation soaked fly with the inner still in place, what then? In practice the light proofing on the inner stops things getting too wet inside the inner, but if you're paranoid take it down on its own and pack it separately (and you can do that while under cover).

As I've posted before, I'll post again: for me a considerable disadvantage of inner-first is you can't have the tent up unless the inner is in place. It's chucking it down and you have some potentially dirty maintenance to do? With a dismountable inner you take it down, roll it to one side and have lots of sheltered space and you can bring in the bike and do the needful with no risk of sharp, oily chainwheels or sprockets messing things up. It also helps the campcraft thing mentioned up-thread if you can sort out lots of wet stuff under cover but not in the inner, or extra party space for friends to come in for a communal tea under cover. I use this feature, I'd miss it if I didn't have it. If you've never had it, you wouldn't miss it.

I have an inner first pitch tent (the Hubba Hubba) and it's a good tent, but a lot of its allure was the excellent second hand price I picked it up for. If I had an all-else-equal choice I can't see me opting for inner-first: it's simply less flexible in use.

Footprints...
For years I used an old orange bivvi bag as a footprint for my Spacepacker. It did the job okay. An "official" footprint isn't necessary, though if you're willing to trade money for effort (mainly in not having to bother attachment points, assuming you want a footprint that attaches, again nice but certainly not necessary) you'll know it fits the bill. The job is to protect the (sewn in) groundsheet. If it gets the odd hole or scrape itself that doesn't really matter much.

Pete.

But with the Hubba Hubba, can't you pitch the fly only? Fast and Light I think they call it.