Diplomatic Immunity?

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Mistik-ka
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by Mistik-ka »

thirdcrank wrote:Mention of Canada has me wondering whether it might have made any difference to the level of media interest if the driver had been a Commonwealth citizen from somewhere where it's driving on the right. The wife of a Mountie might be viewed differently.

I don't know the extent of Canadian diplomatic presence in this country or if they would assert diplomatic immunity in a case like this. Perhaps my point is self-serving in that if the media didn't get so outraged about a Canadian driver, a fair trial might not be raised as an issue.


It is my impression —without substantial evidence— that the Canadian diplomatic corps are held to a relatively high standard of behaviour when abroad (unlike members of the Canadian military, who periodically face military prosecution for unlawful actions when serving overseas). I'm sure there are transgressions by diplomats and staff, and I'm equally sure that considerable effort would be put into dealing with such transgressions quietly and … well … diplomatically if possible. Whisking an offender back home to shield them would be very out of character for Canada.

On the question of British media (and person-in-the-street) disdain for Americans, it has been observable during the decades that Mrs. M-K and I have toured Britain by bicycle and on foot. It's intensity fluctuates depending upon what Americans and their politicians are up to at any given time, but I think there will always be an element of on-going resentment within a colonial population for the citizens of the imperialist power that dominates them (even if that domination is primarily cultural and fiscal).

In short, if faced with a court appearance in Britain, I would prefer to be a Canadian rather than an American.
thirdcrank
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by thirdcrank »

An interesting bit of history here about why we have US agents as well as diplomats "over here."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56284453
lbomaak2
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Harry Dunn case

Post by lbomaak2 »

There doesn't appear to have been much interest in the Harry Dunn case on this Forum, or officially from Cycling UK. It was a motorcyclist who was killed, but could just as easily have been a cyclist.

On the radio this morning [BBC Radio 4 "Today" programme] it was claimed by Anne Sacoolas's lawyer that in the USA the offence of causing death by careless driving would only be punishable only by Community Service (although that was disputed by another interviewee); which suggests that the US legal system is even worse than that in the UK when it comes to dealing appropriately with careless use of a potentially lethal weapon (a motor vehicle).
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Re: Harry Dunn case

Post by Jdsk »

Psamathe
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Re: Harry Dunn case

Post by Psamathe »

lbomaak2 wrote:There doesn't appear to have been much interest in the Harry Dunn case on this Forum....

Only 19 pages https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=133121&hilit=diplomatic

Ian
thirdcrank
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by thirdcrank »

An excellent lesson in keeping a story in the public eye.
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Re: Harry Dunn case

Post by Vorpal »

lbomaak2 wrote:On the radio this morning [BBC Radio 4 "Today" programme] it was claimed by Anne Sacoolas's lawyer that in the USA the offence of causing death by careless driving would only be punishable only by Community Service (although that was disputed by another interviewee); which suggests that the US legal system is even worse than that in the UK when it comes to dealing appropriately with careless use of a potentially lethal weapon (a motor vehicle).

That is a half truth. It varies by state. Some states do not have an equivalent charge, though the driver of a vehicle who kills someone can be charged with manslaughter or homicide, depending upon circumstances.

For states that do have an equivalent charge (which could be anything from careless driving to vehicular manslaughter, though some similar variants, such as inattentive driving leading to death, careless driving leading to death, etc. also exist), the punishment varies from fines & points (or the equivalent) to jail time. I would be surprised if they couldn't find a few states where community service was considered an appropriate punishment, but in that case, it is likely to be quite a high requirement (200 - 400 hours) and accompanied by a fine ($2,000 - $10,000?) and/or points, or a temporary suspension (3 - 12 months) of driving licence.

TBH, roads policing is a mixed bag in the USA. Despite being even more car-oriented than the UK, in some ways, they are a little better on justice when dealing with bad drivers. I have known, for example, people to be permanently disqualified because of repeat drink driving violations, or driving dangerously after a return from a disqualification period. Also, It is very common there to use temporary disqualifications as punishment for relatively minor offences. People who drive whilst disqualified are usually jailed & permanently banned. In addition, it is very much harder to plead exceptional hardship, and those that are successful are typically only allowed to drive for whatever causes the hardship (i.e. having to take a disabled child to a special needs school).

That said, someone with money & a good lawyer can generally get away with much more than someone without either. And the other side of roads policing in the USA is that traffic stops are used for community policing in the USA, and are sometimes used abusively. And road danger reduction has much further to go there than in the UK.
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Psamathe
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Re: Harry Dunn case

Post by Psamathe »

Vorpal wrote:
lbomaak2 wrote:On the radio this morning [BBC Radio 4 "Today" programme] it was claimed by Anne Sacoolas's lawyer that in the USA the offence of causing death by careless driving would only be punishable only by Community Service (although that was disputed by another interviewee); which suggests that the US legal system is even worse than that in the UK when it comes to dealing appropriately with careless use of a potentially lethal weapon (a motor vehicle).

That is a half truth. It varies by state. Some states do not have an equivalent charge, though the driver of a vehicle who kills someone can be charged with manslaughter or homicide, depending upon circumstances.
.....

UK press reports are saying similar but in a more general context e.g.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/harry-dunn-anne-sacoolas-community-service-b1814333.html wrote:...
The Dunn family’s spokesman, Radd Seiger, said Ms Sacoolas was “categorically wrong” to claim community service was a typical sentence in the US.

“The fact is that in the United States they have exactly the same laws against bad driving as we do here. The only difference is that they have tougher and stricter sentences over there.”
...

Ian
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simonineaston
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by simonineaston »

OK so how's this for a notion... forget all about this woman. One of the ideas behind the rule of law is to deter a minority of folk from behaving badly, in order to protect the bulk of the citizens. I suggest that the inclination of all our good citizens to drive in a safe and careful manner will not have been affected one jot by Anna Sacoolas' bad driving, or indeed her skidaddling back to the States. On the other hand, given the current hoo-hah, she is likely never to darken our shores again, so we, the nation, are a tiny little bit safer as a result. Job done. End of.
Last edited by simonineaston on 9 Mar 2021, 9:07pm, edited 1 time in total.
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thirdcrank
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by thirdcrank »

This seems to be triggering a lot of weasel words from politicians eg

..Mr Buckland said the priority should be to establish liability for the death.

He said this morning: "Here in England and Wales we like to deal with things in their proper order.

"At the moment there is outstanding a very serious matter relating to alleged driving of this person and the death of a young man who has left behind a family who is naturally not just grief-stricken, but who want justice.

"The current situation is a denial of justice.

"Rather than talking about the sentence that would be appropriate, let's actually deal with the question of liability first."...


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/ ... ect-offer/

Mr Buckland = The Rt Hon Robert Buckland QC, Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice .

As a top learned friend, he knows that liability is normally a term in civil law, relating to liability to pay compensation and he must know eg from the law reports if nothing else that she admitted liability long ago. He also knows - again from the law reports - that it was UK government incompetence which meant that the US government could assert diplomatic immunity and whisk her away. It seems settled that the suspect is not coming back and the likes of Mr Buckland should not hide behind this sort of talk. The current situation is caused by the application of our system of justice.

Incidentally, and on the subject of the US government removing the suspect, I see from the explanation in the Appeal Court ruling, if a "receiving" government unsuccessfully asks a "sending" government to waive diplomatic immunity, as happened here, then the usual step is for the "receiving" government to declare the suspect persona non grata the diplomatic expression for kicking them out. It seems the US government pre-empted that.

(The Appeal Court ruling was linked earlier in the thread.)
Psamathe
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by Psamathe »

simonineaston wrote:OK so how's this for a notion... forget all about this woman. One of the ideas behind the rule of law is to deter folks from behaving badly, in order to protect the bulk of the citizens. I suggest that the inclination of all our good citizens to drive in a safe and careful manner will not have been affected one jot by Anna Sacoolas' bad driving, or indeed her skidaddling back to the States. On the other hand, given the current hoo-hah, she is likely never to darken our shores again, so we, the nation, are a tiny little bit safer as a result. Job done. End of.

I wonder if there are also further issues that have arisen e.g. our extradition treaty with the US (has it become too one-sided?); competence of the Foreign Office - a couple of issues beyond the incident itself that should probably be addressed.

Ian
thirdcrank
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by thirdcrank »

I don't think this has anything to do with extradition. Putting it at its very least, this is a problem that the British government anticipated, but cocked up years ago. They had a pretty clear alert about the correct interpretation of the diplomatic immunity of families and households, in a Supreme Court judgment a couple of years ago and it looks as though they ignored it.
thirdcrank
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by thirdcrank »

simonineaston wrote:OK so how's this for a notion... forget all about this woman. One of the ideas behind the rule of law is to deter a minority of folk from behaving badly, in order to protect the bulk of the citizens. I suggest that the inclination of all our good citizens to drive in a safe and careful manner will not have been affected one jot by Anna Sacoolas' bad driving, or indeed her skidaddling back to the States. On the other hand, given the current hoo-hah, she is likely never to darken our shores again, so we, the nation, are a tiny little bit safer as a result. Job done. End of.


One of the subjects this raises is "public interest." That would apply to the suggestion bandied about in the media at one stage that the Yanks at this base were hiding behind diplomatic immunity to drive as they liked. We've not heard much from what I'll term the other side but I find this relevant

(Anne Sacoolas' lawyer) ... also denied reports Sacoolas had not called for help after the crash, saying she had flagged down another motorist who had called an ambulance while Sacoolas notified police at Croughton, where she worked with her husband for the US State Department.

Sacoolas had cooperated with local police, Ms Jeffress said, supplied a zero-reading breathalyser test, surrendered her phone to show she had not been using it, and was interviewed by police for several hours.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... rvice.html

That suggest to me that this driver was not aware that they might be protected by diplomatic immunity or they would have asserted it from the outset.

Also, as I've already posted, I know nothing about civil proceedings in the US but the summary in that article suggests it's not much different from England and Wales ie settle "out of court" or defend the case in court. Here, the emphasis is on the parties reaching agreement and the risk of legal costs orders encourages that. ie going to court for its own sake is expensive.

Anyway, the relevant diplomatic immunity agreement has now been changed to (hopefully) stop it being an issue at this base in future.
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
Latest-

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/anne ... 49740.html


"Harry Dunn’s alleged killer could have been “distracted by her mobile phone” moments before the teenager’s road crash death, his family’s lawyers have claimed.

Court documents, submitted as part of the damages claim brought against Anne Sacoolas in the US, detail allegations from the Dunn family’s legal representatives that the suspect has been “evasive” about her phone usage at the time of the collision"


"In the so-called “opposition motion”, the Dunn family’s lawyers claimed no calls or texts were found on the suspect’s SIM card on the day of the crash, but call records were found the day before and the day after."
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thirdcrank
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by thirdcrank »

I've linked to this before but here it is again for ease of reference.
Sacoolas had cooperated with local police, Ms Jeffress [her lawyer] said, supplied a zero-reading breathalyser test, surrendered her phone to show she had not been using it, and was interviewed by police for several hours.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... rvice.html

AIUI, that was all before any suggestion of diplomatic immunity had been raised.
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Other than the continuing attempts to keep this in the public eye, I'm not clear what's likely to be achieved by this media release. The case before the US courts is a civil one ie about compo. I don't think there's any doubt that the fatal crash was caused by Ms Sacoolas driving on the wrong side of the road and there are no suggestions of contributory negligence (if that principle exists in the US) so the only matter to resolve is the amount of the payout.

However, attempts to bring a criminal prosecution in England seem to be continuing so comments which might prejudice a trial are at least inappropriate and possibly unlawful. IIRC, the American authorities claimed a fair trial in England was unlikely (my words.) It's hard to see that comments about "hired guns" would reduce their concerns and their co-operation would be vital to a trial here.

FWIW, if this did reach an English court by video link, I presume the defence would make the special plea of "diplomatic immunity at the time of the alleged offence."
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