Diplomatic Immunity?

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thirdcrank
Posts: 36764
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by thirdcrank »

TTBOMK diplomatic immunity was not claimed before she left the UK. Corrections welcome.
From the introductory paragraphs of your own link to the High Court judgment
3. Following the accident there was a period of dialogue between the US Embassy and the
Foreign and Commonwealth Office (“the FCO” - now the Foreign, Commonwealth and
Development Office) concerning the potential diplomatic immunity of Mrs Sacoolas
from the criminal jurisdiction of the United Kingdom.

4. Upon the conclusion of that dialogue, on 15 September 2019, Mrs Sacoolas left
England, the FCO having accepted that Mrs Sacoolas was entitled to immunity from
criminal proceedings in the United Kingdom. Although the Defendant is the Secretary
of State, for convenience we will refer to the Defendant as “the FCO”, as the parties
have done in their submissions before us.
thirdcrank
Posts: 36764
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by thirdcrank »

While waiting for 18 January, 2022, here's a fun-packed case involving a remote trial.

Man, 24, accused of assaulting Chris Whitty in a Westminster park appears in court via video on his bed in a dressing gown 'with Covid' - as his lawyer withdraws from case because he is 'professionally embarrassed'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -gown.html
thirdcrank
Posts: 36764
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by thirdcrank »

Harry Dunn crash: Anne Sacoolas UK court date postponed

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-n ... e-59996219
==========================================================
PS No mention of a new date so this may have gone into the long legal grass
reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by reohn2 »

Why am I not surprised?
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
thirdcrank
Posts: 36764
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by thirdcrank »

As a total bit of non-news - apart from anybody obsessed with house prices:

FOR SALE: US woman facing court over death of teen biker Harry Dunn selling her family home

Anne Sacoolas, 44, and her spy husband put the Washington DC property up for £830,000. (... )

The couple have owned the four bedroom, three bathroom house in the leafy Washington DC suburb since August 2015.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/18095269/ ... ling-home/
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by Jdsk »

NB date.

Sacoolas has appeared at Westminster Magistrates' Court by video.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-n ... e-63076171

Jonathan
Jdsk
Posts: 24478
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 3:18pmSacoolas has appeared at Westminster Magistrates' Court by video.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-n ... e-63076171
Pleaded guilty to causing death by careless driving, and has been asked to appear in person:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... harry-dunn

Jonathan
Psamathe
Posts: 17616
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by Psamathe »

Jdsk wrote: 20 Oct 2022, 3:57pm
Jdsk wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 3:18pmSacoolas has appeared at Westminster Magistrates' Court by video.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-n ... e-63076171
Pleaded guilty to causing death by careless driving, and has been asked to appear in person:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... harry-dunn

Jonathan
Based on individual's history maybe arrest her on arrival given she is clearly at risk of absconding.

Ian
mattheus
Posts: 5030
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Location: Western Europe

Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by mattheus »

Jdsk wrote: 20 Oct 2022, 3:57pm
Jdsk wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 3:18pmSacoolas has appeared at Westminster Magistrates' Court by video.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-n ... e-63076171
Pleaded guilty to causing death by careless driving, and has been asked to appear in person:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... harry-dunn

Jonathan
Thanks JD. Any other week in the UK and this would be getting more main-stream coverage.

That is a heart-breaking read, especially the statement by Harry's mum. Hard to get excited about UK politics when you read something like that :(
Stevek76
Posts: 2084
Joined: 28 Jul 2015, 11:23am

Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by Stevek76 »

Always got the impression she didn't get the uk system on this. Normal method is to plead guilty to the lesser charge of death by careless, be remorseful, bung in the moments inattention etc excuses and at worst get a suspended sentence isn't it? Quite likely get away with a fine/community order.
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
millimole
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Location: Leicester

Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by millimole »

Stevek76 wrote:Always got the impression she didn't get the uk system on this. Normal method is to plead guilty to the lesser charge of death by careless, be remorseful, bung in the moments inattention etc excuses and at worst get a suspended sentence isn't it? Quite likely get away with a fine/community order.
As the Guardian points out, any penalty is unenforceable in the UK.

I'm not sure what the position would be if she did appear in person, and were sentenced to a custodial sentence though.
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Psamathe
Posts: 17616
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by Psamathe »

millimole wrote: 21 Oct 2022, 8:41am
Stevek76 wrote:Always got the impression she didn't get the uk system on this. Normal method is to plead guilty to the lesser charge of death by careless, be remorseful, bung in the moments inattention etc excuses and at worst get a suspended sentence isn't it? Quite likely get away with a fine/community order.
As the Guardian points out, any penalty is unenforceable in the UK.

I'm not sure what the position would be if she did appear in person, and were sentenced to a custodial sentence though.
I'm no legal expert but I always thought people could be sentenced in their absence. And that could be limiting for her e.g. she goes to France on holiday and plane gets diverted to Heathrow ...

Guardian did say that if she attended in person that would be showing remorse and sentence often lower if remorse shown.

Ian
Carlton green
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Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by Carlton green »

Is Anne Sacoolas going to come to the UK for sentencing? That’s a tough call for anyone in the USA or other countries that have no extradition treaty that could give them up to another country.

For all concerned the logical conclusion to this sad tale is that she returns and is, effectively, let off further penalty. That’s perhaps not really justice but it’s the best that can be hoped for, and Sacoolas has arguably already suffered significant adverse consequences from her actions … those consequences might well have ongoing effect on her too.
Last edited by Carlton green on 21 Oct 2022, 10:48am, edited 1 time in total.
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thirdcrank
Posts: 36764
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by thirdcrank »

Above all, there can be few among us who don't sympathise with the bereaved, especially as this has dragged on for several years.

I learned about diplomatic immunity during initial police training in 1967 and sometimes wondered how to deal with somebody who claimed it in a modern version of civis romanus sum. That never happened. The following is from p1 of this thread
Psamathe wrote: 6 Oct 2019, 10:08am It is something I've been wondering about; not diplomatic immunity as I agree that diplomats need to be able to represent their country, but extending that immunity to non-diplomats (e.g. wives) who don't need to say sometimes controversial unpalatable things as they aren't representing their country.

But I also wonder if even those diplomats (excl. entourage) should abide at least by the laws of their own country e.g. hit somebody with a car and run away would be illegal in the US as well as the UK so "diplomatic immunity" should not be a license to behave outside any laws.

Ian
As this has dragged on, I've followed it with interest and in doing so I've increased my understanding of the subject and the "facts" as established in the appeal processes.

My brief summary would be that the defendant made a momentary error of judgment with devastating consequences.(at the risk of appearing facetious I'll note she was abiding by the laws of her own country by driving on the right.) More to the point, the evidence is that she stopped and remained at the scene and co-operated with the police. In particular, she did not assert diplomatic immunity, which in turn suggests to me that her actions had not been influenced by a belief she was somehow above English law.

There followed a period of a couple of weeks when the relevant authorities discussed her diplomatic status and the relevant department of the foreign office accepted that she did enjoy diplomatic immunity. IMO, it's worth noting that our officials had not taken account of a landmark Supreme Court judgment which made it 100% clear that somebody in this defendant's position enjoyed the protection of diplomatic immunity on a personal basis and that it could only be revoked personally, ie not by implication.

The US government then took the normal (and only available) action of repatriating the defendant with the knowledge of the UK authorities.

Since then, there's been a publicity circus, even involving at one point Donald Trump. There's also been imo unwise comment from eg Andrea Leadsom.

Anyway, I'm saddened to read this after twenty-odd pages, which implies to me I might just as well have held my counsel
Psamathe wrote: 20 Oct 2022, 4:23pm
Jdsk wrote: 20 Oct 2022, 3:57pm
Jdsk wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 3:18pmSacoolas has appeared at Westminster Magistrates' Court by video.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-n ... e-63076171
Pleaded guilty to causing death by careless driving, and has been asked to appear in person:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... harry-dunn

Jonathan
Based on individual's history maybe arrest her on arrival given she is clearly at risk of absconding.

Ian
At the very least, I can see absolutely no evidence for that comment and there's plenty in the thread saying exactly the opposite
Psamathe
Posts: 17616
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by Psamathe »

thirdcrank wrote: 21 Oct 2022, 10:47am Above all, there can be few among us who don't sympathise with the bereaved, especially as this has dragged on for several years.

I learned about diplomatic immunity during initial police training in 1967 and sometimes wondered how to deal with somebody who claimed it in a modern version of civis romanus sum. That never happened. The following is from p1 of this thread
Psamathe wrote: 6 Oct 2019, 10:08am It is something I've been wondering about; not diplomatic immunity as I agree that diplomats need to be able to represent their country, but extending that immunity to non-diplomats (e.g. wives) who don't need to say sometimes controversial unpalatable things as they aren't representing their country.

But I also wonder if even those diplomats (excl. entourage) should abide at least by the laws of their own country e.g. hit somebody with a car and run away would be illegal in the US as well as the UK so "diplomatic immunity" should not be a license to behave outside any laws.

Ian
As this has dragged on, I've followed it with interest and in doing so I've increased my understanding of the subject and the "facts" as established in the appeal processes.

My brief summary would be that the defendant made a momentary error of judgment with devastating consequences.(at the risk of appearing facetious I'll note she was abiding by the laws of her own country by driving on the right.) More to the point, the evidence is that she stopped and remained at the scene and co-operated with the police. In particular, she did not assert diplomatic immunity, which in turn suggests to me that her actions had not been influenced by a belief she was somehow above English law.

There followed a period of a couple of weeks when the relevant authorities discussed her diplomatic status and the relevant department of the foreign office accepted that she did enjoy diplomatic immunity. IMO, it's worth noting that our officials had not taken account of a landmark Supreme Court judgment which made it 100% clear that somebody in this defendant's position enjoyed the protection of diplomatic immunity on a personal basis and that it could only be revoked personally, ie not by implication.

The US government then took the normal (and only available) action of repatriating the defendant with the knowledge of the UK authorities.

Since then, there's been a publicity circus, even involving at one point Donald Trump. There's also been imo unwise comment from eg Andrea Leadsom.

Anyway, I'm saddened to read this after twenty-odd pages, which implies to me I might just as well have held my counsel
Psamathe wrote: 20 Oct 2022, 4:23pm
Jdsk wrote: 20 Oct 2022, 3:57pm
Pleaded guilty to causing death by careless driving, and has been asked to appear in person:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... harry-dunn

Jonathan
Based on individual's history maybe arrest her on arrival given she is clearly at risk of absconding.

Ian
At the very least, I can see absolutely no evidence for that comment and there's plenty in the thread saying exactly the opposite
There are a lot of conflicting reports about the diplomatic immunity status e.g.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/22/anne-sacoolas-did-not-have-diplomatic-immunity-in-dunn-case-says-ex-minister wrote:US claims that the American Anne Sacoolas had diplomatic immunity when she drove into the British motorcyclist Harry Dunn last August have been rejected by the former Conservative minister who signed the agreement covering the base where her husband worked.

In court papers, the former Foreign Office (FCO) minister Tony Baldry said the diplomatic immunity deal reached in 1995 was intended specifically to exclude dangerous driving cases, or indeed any actions not related to the work of the staff at the base.
So if she didn't have diplomatic immunity then to my (non-legal) mind she absconded, maybe her choice or maybe at the suggestion of others. Maybe there were other failings or shortcomings from others on the matter. Maybe the report quoted is wrong but maybe provides the reasoning you couldn't see with your " I can see absolutely no evidence for that comment"

If she does have diplomatic immunity then how did the case get to court and a verdict reached?

Ian
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