Diplomatic Immunity?

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Carlton green
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by Carlton green »

Thank you, TC, for that clarification.

However we look at the event someone was killed and it’s appropriate that the person responsible faces appropriate judgement. To an extent, and perhaps I’m a simpleton, I think that the authorities have let the public down as justice would never have been done without the public outcry over this sad ‘accident’.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by Tangled Metal »

Can you find someone with imunity guilty of an offence? If not then she's not quite absconded if she fled the UK on Official us advice but it was very close relative of absconding imho.
Psamathe
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by Psamathe »

Tangled Metal wrote: 21 Oct 2022, 12:20pm Can you find someone with imunity guilty of an offence? If not then she's not quite absconded if she fled the UK on Official us advice but it was very close relative of absconding imho.
I thought the court had found her guilty and has moved on to a sentencing consideration (as per Guardian article Jonathan linked to). Hence I assume she does not have diplomatic immunity because as you say I'd assume if she had diplomatic immunity there could be no court case. But I'm no legal expert.

Ian
Jdsk
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by Jdsk »

Psamathe wrote: 21 Oct 2022, 12:27pm...
Hence I assume she does not have diplomatic immunity because as you say I'd assume if she had diplomatic immunity there could be no court case.
...
Tangled Metal wrote: 21 Oct 2022, 12:20pm Can you find someone with imunity guilty of an offence?
...
Diplomatic immunity from prosecution isn't absolute. It depends on the crime, the status of the individual, the agreements between the two countries, and decisions by politicians.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity

Jonathan
Stevek76
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by Stevek76 »

millimole wrote: 21 Oct 2022, 8:41am I'm not sure what the position would be if she did appear in person, and were sentenced to a custodial sentence though.
I'd meant right from the start and in light of TCs post then perhaps it was various advisors & diplomatic staff that didn't get typical uk outcomes for this. Would've been vastly less fuss for all concerned if she'd just got her slap on the wrist and drawn a line under it years ago.
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
thirdcrank
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by thirdcrank »

Carlton green wrote: 21 Oct 2022, 10:57am Thank you, TC, for that clarification.

However we look at the event someone was killed and it’s appropriate that the person responsible faces appropriate judgement. To an extent, and perhaps I’m a simpleton, I think that the authorities have let the public down as justice would never have been done without the public outcry over this sad ‘accident’.
In England and Wales, most prosecutions are conducted on behalf of the public by the Crown Prosecution Service under the leadership of the Director of Public Prosecutions. AIUI, the intention was that this organisation should be neutral. ie Uninfluenced by public outcry etc. In this case the CPS was landed with something of a mess through the incompetence of the foreign office (see above.) Once repatriated, the defendant no longer enjoyed diplomatic immunity because she was no longer here. The next step was an application for extradition. For that to be made, a prosecution had to be launched and - in the face of all the pressure - I fancy the line of least resistance for the CPS was to authorise it in the belief that there was a snowball in hell's chance of the extradition application being successful. It did indeed fail, but that left the prosecution open. We now have the totally unsatisfactory situation of the defendant appearing by videolink from beyond the reach of the court and possibly well-advised to stay there. Incidentally, the CPS is under the direction of the attorney general ie a politician who may be influenced by party political consideration. My own view is that the AG should have stopped this at an early stage. The way of doing so used to be (and may still be) by way of a writ of nolle prosequi.

I see that it's now being reported that this will allow some closure for the bereaved family, I hope that's so because I fear that anything short of gaol will reignite the controversy.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-n ... e-63341210
Jdsk
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by Jdsk »

thirdcrank wrote: 21 Oct 2022, 12:53pm ...
Once repatriated, the defendant no longer enjoyed diplomatic immunity because she was no longer here.
...
That's what the Foreign Office asserted:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... -continues

It's not at all clear that this is what was relevant in this case:
https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/legal-upda ... 02.article

Jonathan
thirdcrank
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by thirdcrank »

Jdsk wrote: 21 Oct 2022, 1:06pm
thirdcrank wrote: 21 Oct 2022, 12:53pm ...
Once repatriated, the defendant no longer enjoyed diplomatic immunity because she was no longer here.
...
That's what the Foreign Office asserted:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... -continues

It's not at all clear that this is what was relevant in this case:
https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/legal-upda ... 02.article

Jonathan
I'm not going back to waste time looking, but IIRC higher up in the thread you posted some useful links to the various reports of the hearings in the higher courts. I've based most what I've posted on those reports, especially the stuff about the sequence of events which is definitive here. DI isn't something imposed on us by Europeans, Americans or wishy-washy foreigners more generally but a standard we imposed when the gunboats sailed under our colours.

I'm cautious about alleging things like political interference because I've obviously no evidence but my opinion is that the prosecuting authorities should have applied the "public interest" test at an early stage to discontinue this
Psamathe
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by Psamathe »

thirdcrank wrote: 21 Oct 2022, 12:53pm ...
Once repatriated, the defendant no longer enjoyed diplomatic immunity because she was no longer here.
...
This is where my legal knowledge is totally lacking but I'd always thought that laws and legal staus applies as of the time when the alleged offence was committed. Thus is somebody had Diplomatic Immunity when the offence was committed then that immunity applies after it ends (on moving out of the country) in relation to the case.

I'd never thought about it with respect to Diplomatic Immunity more e.g. if you's done something 10 years ago that was legal at that time and 9 years ago a new law made your actions illegal you cannot be charged retrospectively under the more recent law.

Ian
Jdsk
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by Jdsk »

Psamathe wrote: 21 Oct 2022, 2:09pm
thirdcrank wrote: 21 Oct 2022, 12:53pm ...
Once repatriated, the defendant no longer enjoyed diplomatic immunity because she was no longer here.
...
This is where my legal knowledge is totally lacking but I'd always thought that laws and legal staus applies as of the time when the alleged offence was committed. Thus is somebody had Diplomatic Immunity when the offence was committed then that immunity applies after it ends (on moving out of the country) in relation to the case.
...
In general that's the principle. That's one of the points on which it's worth studying the letter from the Foreign Secretary.

But it's also necessary to understand the subsequent processes and how they could have been different.

Jonathan
thirdcrank
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by thirdcrank »

AIUI, diplomatic immunity is not carte blanche to break the law, but rather an agreement between civilised countries not to mistreat each other's diplomats and their households. If somebody has DI, then it can only be waived by the "sending country" (in this case the US) which they often do if a person with DI commits a crime outside the remit of their diplomatic role. IIRC, the US govt refused to waive DI in this case because of the clamour to prosecute for an offence carrying a long term of imprisonment.

IMO, the question now is "What next?" When the defendant didn't appear at the last hearing, which was vacated with no new date set, I thought this had been kicked into the judicial long grass forever but I was wrong in that it's re-emerged.

AFAIK, The court has no power to compel her attendance other than issuing a warrant and hoping that other countries will enforce it if the defendant goes there.

IMO By pandering to lobbying, we have made our legal system seem shabby
Carlton green
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by Carlton green »

thirdcrank wrote: 21 Oct 2022, 3:05pm IMO By pandering to lobbying, we have made our legal system seem shabby
IMHO our legal system is already quite well tarnished and has been for decades; had the appropriate calls been made at the time then the accused would never have left the country and would have faced appropriate justice. IMHO DI is really no defence in this case and should have never have been considered, by her actions a young man unlawfully lost his life and that is a very serious matter. As for lobbying it is an absolute disgrace that any was ever necessary and unfortunately such public lobbying to get governments and large organisations to do the right thing is far from unusual.
Last edited by Carlton green on 21 Oct 2022, 4:26pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
thirdcrank
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Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by thirdcrank »

To save me speculating, which "appropriate calls" have you in mind? Why should this defendant now be pilloried for those appropriate calls not being made
Carlton green
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by Carlton green »

thirdcrank wrote: 21 Oct 2022, 4:22pm To save me speculating, which "appropriate calls" have you in mind? Why should this defendant now be pilloried for those appropriate calls not being made
I’m not pillorying the defendant, my view is that she should have faced the Courts. The appropriate call would have been for her never to have been allowed to leave the country and for the defence - in some quarters - of diplomatic immunity to have been discounted. The USA shouldn't have flown her home and once home they should have sent her back … but sometimes politics gets in the way of justice.

If she returns to the UK for judgement then a light sentence taking account of remorse might be appropriate, but otherwise throw the book at her and ask the USA to house her in one of their jails.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
pete75
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Post by pete75 »

thirdcrank wrote: 21 Oct 2022, 1:39pm I'm cautious about alleging things like political interference because I've obviously no evidence but my opinion is that the prosecuting authorities should have applied the "public interest" test at an early stage to discontinue this
Yes.
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