http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hamp ... 330950.stm
Came across this while looking at the BBC online article about the Mary Rose. I must say, I get the impression that motorists can kill cyclists with a fair degree of impunity as far as our legal system is concerned, and it terrifies me.
Interesting news story...
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gar
Re:Interesting news story...
If somebody has a clean record and is obviously
very apologetic then you really don't want to ruin two lives, not just the one.
He still has a case to answer and may be locked up for that, in some ways a more serious charge.
If he got in to the habit of knocking people off their bikes and had a minor record to go with it then there would have been no doubt in the mind of Judge Tugendhat as to how to proceed.
As it is he may still proceed in that way after considering the second charge at a later date.
very apologetic then you really don't want to ruin two lives, not just the one.
He still has a case to answer and may be locked up for that, in some ways a more serious charge.
If he got in to the habit of knocking people off their bikes and had a minor record to go with it then there would have been no doubt in the mind of Judge Tugendhat as to how to proceed.
As it is he may still proceed in that way after considering the second charge at a later date.
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m davey
Re:Interesting news story...
In court we are told Mr Cottrell said:
That terrible night has left me very, very devastated
This sounds more like a desperate plea to escape a serious charge.
On the night in question he hit Mr Morris and ran - so I fail to see how it was a terrible night for Mr Cottrell. While Mr Morris was dying we presume Mr Cottrell continued with his mate to the bowling alley.
It only became a terrible night for Mr Cottrell when his crime caught up with him. Sadly it appears his plea swayed the judge, perhaps there are no witnesses or other complications.
Perverting the course of justice is a serious charge so it might be interesting to attend court and hear Mr Cottrell's response to that charge.
The BBC's reporting seems somewhat lacking as it does not state when the case continues.
That terrible night has left me very, very devastated
This sounds more like a desperate plea to escape a serious charge.
On the night in question he hit Mr Morris and ran - so I fail to see how it was a terrible night for Mr Cottrell. While Mr Morris was dying we presume Mr Cottrell continued with his mate to the bowling alley.
It only became a terrible night for Mr Cottrell when his crime caught up with him. Sadly it appears his plea swayed the judge, perhaps there are no witnesses or other complications.
Perverting the course of justice is a serious charge so it might be interesting to attend court and hear Mr Cottrell's response to that charge.
The BBC's reporting seems somewhat lacking as it does not state when the case continues.
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adam
Re:Interesting news story...
I think he should have been charged. If you knock someone over or even glance against them you should stop to see if they are alright. I'm pretty sure this guy probably wanted to escape ? maybe pretend it wasnt him. He must have seen out of his mirror that the guy was injured and still carried on driving. Maybe it wasnt his fault. I really don't know. But what i do know is that there are far too many absolutely appauling drivers, especially when cyclists are concered. Quite often when i'm riding along a road a driver will pass me and then turn left down a road in front of me without considering that i'm even there at all.
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adam
Re:Interesting news story...
I think he should have been charged. If you knock someone over or even glance against them you should stop to see if they are alright. I'm pretty sure this guy probably wanted to escape ? maybe pretend it wasnt him. He must have seen out of his mirror that the guy was injured and still carried on driving. Maybe it wasnt his fault. I really don't know. But what i do know is that there are far too many absolutely appauling drivers, especially when cyclists are concered. Quite often when i'm riding along a road a driver will pass me and then turn left down a road in front of me without considering that i'm even there at all.
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m davey
Re:Interesting news story...
Ahem
Adam, he has been charged he was in court to possibly be convicted.
Adam, he has been charged he was in court to possibly be convicted.
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Andy Tallis
Re:Interesting news story...
I'm with Adam. Even a "glancing" colision with a tonne of metal will certainly hurt a cyclist and he should have stopped. (If it wasn't his fault why wouldn't he stop to check if his car was damaged?) I'm not saying it's manslaughetr, but failing to stop is very inconsiderate.
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johno
Re:Interesting news story...
It will be interesting to see what happens in this case and it is a pity that the BBC have not provided more details about the facts and legal issues. I do wonder why he didn't stop though.
I used to work in the field of road traffic accident litigation and never ceased to be amazed at the (not uncommon) cases which involved motorists not stopping after hitting cyclists in what were usually fatal accidents. Perhaps some genuinely didn't realise what they had done, but I doubt it.
Often it seemed to be alcohol related or a fear of losing their licence for dangerous driving.
What concerned me most of all was that the road traffic offences and the way they were dealt with by the courts seemed to treat a driving licence as a fundamental human right overriding the rights of other road users and pedestrians and not a privilege which is what it should be (bearing in mind the potentially lethal equipment which is being driven).
It would be nice for government to consider introducing legisaltion to impose the sanction of temporary bans for a greater range of driving offences which clearly involve safety issues...but little chance of that happening I suspect.
I used to work in the field of road traffic accident litigation and never ceased to be amazed at the (not uncommon) cases which involved motorists not stopping after hitting cyclists in what were usually fatal accidents. Perhaps some genuinely didn't realise what they had done, but I doubt it.
Often it seemed to be alcohol related or a fear of losing their licence for dangerous driving.
What concerned me most of all was that the road traffic offences and the way they were dealt with by the courts seemed to treat a driving licence as a fundamental human right overriding the rights of other road users and pedestrians and not a privilege which is what it should be (bearing in mind the potentially lethal equipment which is being driven).
It would be nice for government to consider introducing legisaltion to impose the sanction of temporary bans for a greater range of driving offences which clearly involve safety issues...but little chance of that happening I suspect.
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gar
Re:Interesting news story...
is a pity that the BBC have not provided more details about the facts and lega
There are people about who injure and maim with their vehicles and do so deliberately and with forethought. If there is a suggestion that the driver in question did that then he certainly should be sentenced for a long time.
Justice Tugendhat according to the news report decided that it was NOT in any way deliberate; it may, given the benefit of the doubt, partly have been the cyclist's lack of care.
It is, we understand, utterly and completely
wrong to leave the scene of the crime and then to "pervert the course of justice".
Perverting the course of justice is not something that allows the grace of a first offence to ameliorate the Charge. First offence or 51st offence it is still perverting the course of justice and very serious . It is a disregard and disrespect for Law and all its consequences, which is not tolerated by ANY judge.
Tugendhat is saying that the crash WAS an accident, that it has to be viewed objectively
and if the man dashed off claiming he did not realise he had done anything serious... then OK.
He has also been charged with perverting the course of justice. We don't exactly know why.
He may get a steeper sentence for it. The judge IS thinking. He is prepared to accept that it was an accident. He is NOT prepared to accept disrespect for the Law after the event.
In the long term, this
-/+ statement may amount to the same thing
or worse for the man charged with a serious crime NOT just an accident.
One is a traffic accident; the other is Criminal law, mens rhea, rather different issues and the judge has distinguished them in the proper way.
Some men get acquitted and then go out and kill another cyclist. It does happen with traffic accidents like that. They get three years and then go out and kill yet another? What about that? What then?
The charges against this man including Perverting the c of J almost assume that he might do this and the Law is taking the appropriate preventive proceedings.
Those people who cycle on main trunk roads innocently of the day, should be aware that there are such people about, before they venture forth onto them.
There are people about who injure and maim with their vehicles and do so deliberately and with forethought. If there is a suggestion that the driver in question did that then he certainly should be sentenced for a long time.
Justice Tugendhat according to the news report decided that it was NOT in any way deliberate; it may, given the benefit of the doubt, partly have been the cyclist's lack of care.
It is, we understand, utterly and completely
wrong to leave the scene of the crime and then to "pervert the course of justice".
Perverting the course of justice is not something that allows the grace of a first offence to ameliorate the Charge. First offence or 51st offence it is still perverting the course of justice and very serious . It is a disregard and disrespect for Law and all its consequences, which is not tolerated by ANY judge.
Tugendhat is saying that the crash WAS an accident, that it has to be viewed objectively
and if the man dashed off claiming he did not realise he had done anything serious... then OK.
He has also been charged with perverting the course of justice. We don't exactly know why.
He may get a steeper sentence for it. The judge IS thinking. He is prepared to accept that it was an accident. He is NOT prepared to accept disrespect for the Law after the event.
In the long term, this
-/+ statement may amount to the same thing
or worse for the man charged with a serious crime NOT just an accident.
One is a traffic accident; the other is Criminal law, mens rhea, rather different issues and the judge has distinguished them in the proper way.
Some men get acquitted and then go out and kill another cyclist. It does happen with traffic accidents like that. They get three years and then go out and kill yet another? What about that? What then?
The charges against this man including Perverting the c of J almost assume that he might do this and the Law is taking the appropriate preventive proceedings.
Those people who cycle on main trunk roads innocently of the day, should be aware that there are such people about, before they venture forth onto them.
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Stilly
Re:Interesting news story...
Again this goes to prove the fact that cyclists are expendable. This individual knocked down and killed an innocent man with to all intents and purposes is a lethal weapon and because he broke down in tears the Judge says never mind it does not matter. I personally believe the man concerned should be breaking roadstone for cycle paths for the rest of his days. The fact that he is 72 questions the fact should he have been driving at all.
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gar
Re:Interesting news story...
because he broke down in tears t He may not have been an actor and was showing genuine remorse. It was a traffic accident.
Ah well I have tried to explain the possible distinctions!
Going on a news story is not a very good way.
I look forward to hearing the final outcome of a guilty sentence for the more serious charge.
My leg is still broken after 2 1/2 years; it was an
accident but the perpetrator of it was a woman in her late 40's who knocked me off and did not wait to see what had happened. I did not catch up with her and I am even unlikely to get any Crininal injuries compensation as there is no witness evidence. I may even have to PAY CIcB
for the pleasure of making an appeal claim. As we say in Welsh "Ciwt! Eh! Eh?" which roughly translated and refering to the woman in question means "Cute!" Ehhhhhhhhhhhhh?
Ah well I have tried to explain the possible distinctions!
Going on a news story is not a very good way.
I look forward to hearing the final outcome of a guilty sentence for the more serious charge.
My leg is still broken after 2 1/2 years; it was an
accident but the perpetrator of it was a woman in her late 40's who knocked me off and did not wait to see what had happened. I did not catch up with her and I am even unlikely to get any Crininal injuries compensation as there is no witness evidence. I may even have to PAY CIcB
for the pleasure of making an appeal claim. As we say in Welsh "Ciwt! Eh! Eh?" which roughly translated and refering to the woman in question means "Cute!" Ehhhhhhhhhhhhh?
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gar
Re:Interesting news story...
White Hart
Old Romsey Road
Cadnam
Hampshire
SO40 2NP
Tel: 023 80812277
He may be the landlord of this pub so if you live nearby you may go and ask for yourself.
That is only a tentative search and is not necessarily correct, but seems so to me.
Old Romsey Road
Cadnam
Hampshire
SO40 2NP
Tel: 023 80812277
He may be the landlord of this pub so if you live nearby you may go and ask for yourself.
That is only a tentative search and is not necessarily correct, but seems so to me.
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gar
Re:Interesting news story...
If he is that would explain why he did not stop.
1) because he had been drinking and
2) because if he had, he would have been breathalysed
If he is a publican then does the perversion of the course of justice involve tampering with jurors? What were these legal reasons for acquittal for manslaughter, and what are the exact words of the other two charges for Perversion?
1) because he had been drinking and
2) because if he had, he would have been breathalysed
If he is a publican then does the perversion of the course of justice involve tampering with jurors? What were these legal reasons for acquittal for manslaughter, and what are the exact words of the other two charges for Perversion?
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gar
Re:Interesting news story...
See printed news story in further details on bCampaigning and public policy
re Vexed question of wing mirrors.
It would seem the wing mirror killed him
re Vexed question of wing mirrors.
It would seem the wing mirror killed him