Has Trump just started WW3?

[Oldjohnw]

Incidentally, all are to some extent climate denialists.

I see what you've done there. Any other hobby horses you want to drag up again? Of course I expected nothing else of you

Am incorrect? Facts please.

[mattheus]

Incidentally, all are to some extent climate denialists.

I see what you've done there. Any other hobby horses you want to drag up again? Of course I expected nothing else of you

Am incorrect? Facts please.

First tell me what it's got to do with Trump (possibly? Hopefully not!) starting WW3.

I for one don't want to hear your personal rants repeated on every thread in this forum.

[Oldjohnw]

Sorry, Matteus, but this thread is about Trump.

Trump and Morrison - are leaned on pretty heavily nu the religious right. That is well docut. And the Religious Right are both climate deniers and have wanted war with Iran for a long time. Since they believe that God alone will change climate and that they must also defeat Islam the two are linked. They consider they are fulfilling divine prophesy. It isn't mysterious.

Johnson does what he's told.

Every thread? Look at my forum stats and you will find my political comments are almost entirely on the tearoom on political threads.

And you think others use hyperbole!

[PDQ Mobile]

The West has been appeasing Iran for many years; it is a pretty vicious theocracy which has sponsored no end of terrorist groups and would happily wipe Israel off the map. The West has a confused policy in the Middle East and a poor record but there is no doubt the overall problem is that after 50 years or more of independence nearly none of these countries are even close to achieving democracy, and as the saying goes, democracies don't go to war against each other.

This is a distortion of the truth.

The West has been actively interfering in the internal politics of Iran for more than a century in a most direct way.

It has deposed elected leaders by force and installed its own puppet leaders.

Mostly because the oil industry was "threatened".

Much of the present dreadful state of affairs can be wholly attributed to that interference.

The post 1900 stuff is near the bottom of a very long history.
(Other authors have attributed much more US and UK culpability.)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Iran

[Mike Sales]

The West has been appeasing Iran for many years; it is a pretty vicious theocracy which has sponsored no end of terrorist groups and would happily wipe Israel off the map. The West has a confused policy in the Middle East and a poor record but there is no doubt the overall problem is that after 50 years or more of independence nearly none of these countries are even close to achieving democracy, and as the saying goes, democracies don't go to war against each other.

The 1953 Iranian coup d'état, known in Iran as the 28 Mordad coup d'état (Persian : کودتای ۲۸ مرداد ‎), was the overthrow of the democratically elected Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh in favour of strengthening the monarchical rule of Mohammad Reza Pahlavi on 19 August 1953, orchestrated by the United States (under the name TPAJAX Project or " Operation Ajax ") and the United Kingdom (under the name " Operation Boot ").

The West (USA and UK) sabotaged Iranian democracy in favour of the autocratic Shah because of Mossadegh's threat to nationalise the oil fields. Control of oil has informed our policies since, including our arming and support for the despotic, priest ridden Saudi Arabia, from where most of the 9/11 plotters came.
Resentment of our interference is understandable.
This action unifies the Iranians in opposition to the West.

[Vorpal]

The West has been appeasing Iran for many years; it is a pretty vicious theocracy which has sponsored no end of terrorist groups and would happily wipe Israel off the map. The West has a confused policy in the Middle East and a poor record but there is no doubt the overall problem is that after 50 years or more of independence nearly none of these countries are even close to achieving democracy, and as the saying goes, democracies don't go to war against each other.

Er... The USA (with British support) overthrew the last democratic government in Iran https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/10/30/th ... ic-leader/

How shall they achieve democracy, then? (cross-posted with Mike Sales)

[mattheus]

Every thread? Look at my forum stats and you will find my political comments are almost entirely on the tearoom on political threads.

And you think others use hyperbole!

I was mistaken - I should have written "Board" not "forum". mea culpa



You do seem to think that it's of interest to us - on almost every political Tearoom thread - to trot out your rants about Johnson. Who as we know, wasn't consulted on this attack.

I look forward to a monologue about the word "started"!

[Oldjohnw]

Every thread? Look at my forum stats and you will find my political comments are almost entirely on the tearoom on political threads.

And you think others use hyperbole!

I was mistaken - I should have written "Board" not "forum". mea culpa



You do seem to think that it's of interest to us - on almost every political Tearoom thread - to trot out your rants about Johnson. Who as we know, wasn't consulted on this attack.

I look forward to a monologue about the word "started"!

Not worth spending my time on. I:m off to make some marmalade.

[PDQ Mobile]

Not worth spending my time on. I:m off to make some marmalade.

Warning -welcome thread drift!

As chance would have it yesterday was Crab Apple Jelly making day!

Some of the fruit has lain untouched for weeks where the cows (who love them) couldn't reach and has been touched by frost.

The jelly is really fine. Pink, perfumed, delicate and clear.
I am pleased I planted more Crab Apple!

Enjoy your Marmalade. Seville Oranges?

[mattheus]

Not worth spending my time on. I:m off to make some marmalade.

Warning -welcome thread drift!

WE will be the judge of that! ;- )

[Mike Sales]

The international coalition fighting Islamic State yesterday suspended operations against the terrorist group so its forces can concentrate on protecting US, UK and other troops at bases in Iraq following the killing of Qassem Suleimani.

[PDQ Mobile]

Not worth spending my time on. I:m off to make some marmalade.

Warning -welcome thread drift!

WE will be the judge of that! ;- )

Here I sit upon my drift.
Sneaking feeling someone's sniffed.

In January 1947 the drifts in the UK were 7m deep.
Eastern England recorded a temperature of minus 20c! Wind speed force 6!

It is considered the severe weather was contributory to the downfall of the then Labour Govt.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_ ... ed_Kingdom

[rjb]

There's more to this than meets the eye. Think of the message that sends to Kim Jong un. He's been pretty quiet about his promised announcement.

[Mike Sales]

There's more to this than meets the eye. Think of the message that sends to Kim Jong un. He's been pretty quiet about his promised announcement.

According to North Korea’s ministry of state security, the CIA has not abandoned its old ways. In a statement on Friday, it accused that the CIA and South Korea’s intelligence service of being behind an alleged recent an assassination attempt on its leader Kim Jong-un.

It would be unwise to believe North Korea, but at the least this shows that they are already wary.
On the other hand, the USA has a history of such attempts, especially aimed at Fidel Castro.

Earlier well-documented episodes include Congo’s first prime minister, Patrice Lumumba of Congo, judged by the US to be too close to close to Russia. In 1960, the CIA sent a scientist to kill him with a lethal virus, though this became unnecessary when he was removed from office in 1960 by other means. Other leaders targeted for assassination in the 1960s included the Dominican dictator Rafael Trujillo, president Sukarno of Indonesia and president Ngo Dinh Diem of South Vietnam.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/may/05/cia-long-history-kill-leaders-around-the-world-north-korea

[Ben@Forest]

The West has been appeasing Iran for many years; it is a pretty vicious theocracy which has sponsored no end of terrorist groups and would happily wipe Israel off the map. The West has a confused policy in the Middle East and a poor record but there is no doubt the overall problem is that after 50 years or more of independence nearly none of these countries are even close to achieving democracy, and as the saying goes, democracies don't go to war against each other.

Er... The USA (with British support) overthrew the last democratic government in Iran https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/10/30/th ... ic-leader/

How shall they achieve democracy, then? (cross-posted with Mike Sales)

Very true. Hence the word 'poor'. But that overthrow was in 1953 and the Shah was deposed in 1979. A theocracy was installed and on the domestic front there has been essentially no change since that time. The regime is very repressive and happily hangs gay men and political opponents. Its military has an all-pervading influence, is also corrupt and prosecutes Iran's foreign strategy through terrorism.

A significant number of people on this forum like to berate Americans for their belief in 'my country right or wrong', their apparent naif religious fervour and their reliance on a strong military. Iran does all that and more.

Consider that since 1953 (and often closer to 1979) the following countries have rid themselves of dictatorships for democracy: South Korea, Portugal, Spain, Brazil, Argentina... plus other countries in South America and Europe. Somehow Iran can't and it's symptomatic of the Middle East. Yes, there have been external influences and intrigues; but as many in-depth studies of the region show - the main problem has been their own rulers who have no interest in promulgating a fairer, better government.