Bikes no longer permitted on western TGV services

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mjr
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Re: Bikes no longer permitted on western TGV services

Post by mjr »

Angstrom wrote:
mjr wrote:It's all part of discouraging cycling, isn't it?

No intention to discourage anyone, just a pragmatic approach.
SNCF gets beaten all the time for a) being too expensive and b) costing too much to the tax payer (among other things).

Space for bikes in TGVs not only take up space that could be sold for more travellers when there are cyclists in the train. They also take up space for 80% of the time when cyclists aren't there.

Why aren't the bikes stored in crumple zones like on some UK trains? That space cannot be used safely for passengers.

Plus with cycling holidays being on the rise, there will never be enough bike space at peak periods so they know whatever they do people will complain.

I bet fewer people complain if there are some bike spaces. What an argument! We cannot satisfy all demand so therefore we will withdraw supply! :-s

We just have to deal with it. We can (and I do also) moan, but it ain't going to chnage quickly.

We have to deal with it, but we shouldn't just do that. We should write to TGV's customer service accounts and let them know we are angry.

I know of people travelling with Blablacar with their bikes (car-pooling).

I saw a news item today about a surge in thefts from covoiturage/carpooling parking places. I'm surprised it hadn't happened sooner, as it's a place where most cars won't be touched for hours and most of them seem to be unguarded.
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Angstrom
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Re: Bikes no longer permitted on western TGV services

Post by Angstrom »

mjr wrote:
Angstrom wrote:Space for bikes in TGVs not only take up space that could be sold for more travellers when there are cyclists in the train. They also take up space for 80% of the time when cyclists aren't there.

Why aren't the bikes stored in crumple zones like on some UK trains? That space cannot be used safely for passengers.

Maybe they haven't thought about it you should definitely reach out to them telling them you have figured it out. :wink:

mjr wrote:
Angstrom wrote:We just have to deal with it. We can (and I do also) moan, but it ain't going to chnage quickly.

We have to deal with it, but we shouldn't just do that. We should write to TGV's customer service accounts and let them know we are angry.

I was just being pragmatic. SNCF does what it is asked to do and manages their priorities accordingly, like other businesses. Cyclists represent a tiny part of their business. SNCF prefers to please other stakeholders. Cyclists more happy is icing on the cake for them. I don't like it but that's how it is. I'm not sure we cyclist would be ready to pay for a non subsidized ticket for our bikes, meaning that if the law would force SNCF to add space (which I hope will happen with European legislation under discussion) we'd ask other people to pay for us. It will never happen at large scale.

mjr wrote:
Angstrom wrote:Plus with cycling holidays being on the rise, there will never be enough bike space at peak periods so they know whatever they do people will complain.

I bet fewer people complain if there are some bike spaces. What an argument! We cannot satisfy all demand so therefore we will withdraw supply! :-s

That's not what I meant. They know that keeping a profitable TGV network and service cannot be done while catering for the growing cyclist community needs. It's absolutely not scalable. The more popular cycling holidaying gets, the less relevant the TGV offering will be. Other more flexible means will have to be developed (put back into service) like traditional trains where wagons can be added and fitted with appropriate equipment for a much lower cost. Or buses with trailers.
Bike advocacy groups act like they don't understand that. At their own perils. They should negotiate good and more realistic alternatives instead of fighting lost battles. Examples of good fights:
1) Forcing SNCF to schedule Intercités trains on all major routes. The network is there. The equipment is there. It can be adapted to demand variations very easily. It can be done at low cost.
2) Making it easier to pack bikes on normal TGVs: a bag rental system, offering storage for one's bag while traveling. Possibility to ship the bag to another station for those departing/arriving in different places.
3) Convenient bike transportation and temporary storage so one could send the bike in advance and find it at your final destination.

All of these ideas cost much much less than transforming TGV trains to accept a rising number of travelers, for a very seasonal demand, with very little flexibility to adjust to a difficult to predict future demand.

mjr wrote:
Angstrom wrote:I know of people travelling with Blablacar with their bikes (car-pooling).

I saw a news item today about a surge in thefts from covoiturage/carpooling parking places. I'm surprised it hadn't happened sooner, as it's a place where most cars won't be touched for hours and most of them seem to be unguarded.


I meant that few people I know use Blablacar car pooling app for travelling and to my surprise, were able to find rides they could go on with their bikes.
The idea is to not take your car therefore not leaving it for long periods in a dedicated parking area.
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Cyril Haearn
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Re: Bikes no longer permitted on western TGV services

Post by Cyril Haearn »

Some of the double-decker coaches in Germany (maybe two or three out of five in a set) have multipurpose areas downstairs, with tip-up seats or no seats, for cycles, wheelchairs, prams etc, plus toilet suitable for wheelchair users

Do the TGV-duplex vehicles provide for disabled people in wheelchairs? I thought that was a legal requirement

I wouldnae mind travelling in a 'conventional' intercity train, very fast travel can be unpleasant if one is used to enjoying the landscape
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mattheus
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Re: Bikes no longer permitted on western TGV services

Post by mattheus »

Cyril Haearn wrote:Some of the double-decker coaches in Germany (maybe two or three out of five in a set) have multipurpose areas downstairs, with tip-up seats or no seats, for cycles, wheelchairs, prams etc, plus toilet suitable for wheelchair users

Do the TGV-duplex vehicles provide for disabled people in wheelchairs? I thought that was a legal requirement


I've seen those basement multipurpose areas,possibly in France, definitiely in Belgium.
On the Western TGV last year the bikes were allocated to part of the last carriage, shared with suitcases. I don't think they included wheelchair provision.
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Re: Bikes no longer permitted on western TGV services

Post by Angstrom »

Cyril Haearn wrote:Do the TGV-duplex vehicles provide for disabled people in wheelchairs? I thought that was a legal requirement

Indeed they do.

They are located in 1st class area, obviously on the lower deck. They have extra space for someone on a wheelchiar but the area is ill suited for storing a bike (no way to fasten it). Impossible to just lean a bike on a window, even if the floor plan is big enough. It would require an extra removable device to allow fastening of bikes, a necessity for obvious safety reasons.
Then what happens if a disabled person wishes to book this place and it is taken by a bike?

I wouldnae mind travelling in a 'conventional' intercity train, very fast travel can be unpleasant if one is used to enjoying the landscape


In the example of Paris-Bordeaux, the conventional railway track has been (and probably still is) the best non high-speed railway on the French network. Prestigious trains were commercially linking the 2 cities at 200 km/h cruising speed and more.
It's no coincidence it is the last high speed track to be opened in France between 2 major cities. As a matter of fact, the French state had set criteria for funding or not new high speed lines. They ruled that a minimal percentage of time had to be shaved off compared to the existing scheduled travel time if they were to fund the project. This could only be achieved by slowing down trains for years prior to the decision to allow a sufficient time gain between TGV and traditional train. Michel Rocard (former prime minister in France who made the final decision to approve of funding of the TGV to Bordeaux) admitted in one of his books he'd been fooled by SNCF executives who wasted every traveler's time to achieve their goal (he took it as an example to show that technocrats outmaneuver politicians very easily).

This to say that it could be possible to reach Bordeaux on a conventional train at very reasonable speed if SNCF wanted to to.
"A cycle tourist doesn't have a track record. Just memories". Jean Taboureau
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Re: Bikes no longer permitted on western TGV services

Post by Angstrom »

bohrsatom wrote:A heads up for those looking to ride in France this year. According to Freewheeling France, since January bikes are now no longer permitted on the following TGV routes:

  • Paris-Nantes
  • Paris-Rennes
  • Paris-Bordeaux

The SNCF online booking system does confirm this - it won't show any TGV services between Paris-Bordeaux once you add a bike reservation.

These services previously allowed bikes for a €10 surcharge. I used the Paris-Bordeaux service a few years ago and found it a very smooth way to get to Southwestern France. Very disappointed that this is no longer the case, as an alternative route is going to be very time-consuming and complex.

Sorry to pull this post up again but if someone is interested in this subject.
It is possible to reach Bordeaux from Paris by train without disassembling the bike.

Although the French online booking oui.sncf will show no possibility to do so, the way to go is to book:

  • Paris->Limoges (Intercités, 10€ for the bike) and then
  • Limoges ->Bordeaux with TER (regional train. No charge for the bike).
Its bears a reasonable cost of 67 € (with bike) and the fastest journey is 6 hours (6h37 - 12h39).

Not bad at all actually since the distance by bike according to Cycle.travel is 623km. That's more than 100 km/h average speed. Even Chris Froome can't beat that. :lol:
It's a very nice journey too.
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Re: Bikes no longer permitted on western TGV services

Post by mjr »

6 hours is still a big step back from 2 hours by TGV, though.
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Re: Bikes no longer permitted on western TGV services

Post by Angstrom »

mjr wrote:6 hours is still a big step back from 2 hours by TGV, though.

But 2 hours is so much less than it was before and what is actually required to go on holidays.

6 hours for 600 km ! Come on!

Human beings are never satisfied... (Sigh).

Always want more.
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Re: Bikes no longer permitted on western TGV services

Post by Cyril Haearn »

Right again, it is a holiday, 100 kmh average is plenty
Besides, the scenery is much better on the old classic magistrale route, at 300 kmh the view is blurred
..
BoJo just approved hs2, soon* the UK shall catch up :?
* 20 years?
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Re: Bikes no longer permitted on western TGV services

Post by Angstrom »

I checked again and booking a spot in a TGV for a not disassembled bike is now possible again between Paris and Bordeaux.
Note that there is one proposed train during the week-ends, but many on a week-day.

It is very odd because I did look a couple of months ago and it was not possible.
But it's good news. A 2 hour ride.
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Re: Bikes no longer permitted on western TGV services

Post by mjr »

Very good news!

You can say that four more hours non-cycling travelling doesn't matter on a holiday but most people have finite holidays from work so four hours more each way means basically a day less cycling and so your holiday horizons become a little smaller, you experience less of a country, which I suggest is bad for us in general. It's a balancing act between time, money, robustness, sustainability and cycling experiences and restrictions like this move that balance in a bad way.
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Re: Bikes no longer permitted on western TGV services

Post by MrsHJ »

Can anyone remember which website enables you to search for train times etc with bike for travel in France. I know one of them does but I don’t think it’s SNCF unless it’s on the app that I would need to upload again. Am starting to plan the velo Francette for June (thank you for the idea in cycle.travel Richard) and mulling over getting back by train from La Rochelle to Caen/ Ouistreham.

I’m sure I’ve looked into it before and figured out a solution but I didn’t save it.

Edit: looking for trains with a shorter time horizon and clicking no no high speed trains seems to have at least proved that it’s possible by intercity or TER. They must not have released the train timetable too far in advance (I still need to check the bikes situation though so I could still do with checking but generally TER services are ok in my experience).
Last edited by MrsHJ on 23 Dec 2021, 8:09pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jdsk
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Re: Bikes no longer permitted on western TGV services

Post by Jdsk »

MrsHJ wrote: 23 Dec 2021, 8:03pm Can anyone remember which website enables you to search for train times etc with bike for travel in France.
I start with Deutsche Bahn:
https://www.bahn.de/hilfe/view/pk/en/fahrrad.shtml
https://www.bahn.com/en

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Re: Bikes no longer permitted on western TGV services

Post by MrsHJ »

Jdsk wrote: 23 Dec 2021, 8:08pm I start with Deutsche Bahn:
https://www.bahn.de/hilfe/view/pk/en/fahrrad.shtml

Jonathan
Thank you- I think that Deutschmark Bahn is the one was thinking of. As we’re currently not in Norway as planned am doing some forward thinking to cheer me up.

Swiss rail is a great app but I think is only in country information. They do e tickets too and I think the last time I tried with SNCF in September e tickets were on the app in theory but not possible in reality.
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Re: Bikes no longer permitted on western TGV services

Post by horizon »

From smart phone all 23.09.21 019.jpg
I went from Bordeaux back to Dieppe last year in July (in the middle of the pandemic). I had cycled from Dieppe down into Les Landes but then train hopped my way back via places such as Tours and Le Mans. I stopped at a new city each night, cycled to a campsite and then did another hop the next day. I usually tried to include (or had to include) a few miles cycling each day as well, but time was the limiting factor. It was of course a great way to explore France.

I too had to use the TERs but I really cannot see any disadvantage to this. It was totally relaxed and you can of course hop off and on. Bike spaces erred on the generous side and the bike went on the hook a yard or two from your seat.. For a cycling holiday it is ideal. I did meet people running the gauntlet (using folding bikes) on the TGVs; once we had discussed the pros and cons, it was "never again". I think people are lured into booking TGVs because they tend to be pushed forward as the obvious, fastest route.

So how did I book? I used this website:

https://www.thetrainline.com/

It might not be everyone's favourite (I don't know) but for me it worked perfectly. What's more, I was able to distinguish between the TGVs and regional TER services (there are other, fast, budget, services too but these don't take bikes either). Once you know the names of the types of service, you can book with ease, though TER basically covers it. AFAIR, I was able to get the usual advance booking discounts.

I had once travelled on French trains by bike in the long distant past from Paris to Clermont and from Nimes to Paris and onto Victoria but it was nothing like this. This was ideal, though now, were I to do it again, I probably wouldn't book and just get a ticket at the station and hop on and off the trains.

What bugs me is that TGVs are pushed in your face as though speed were the only requirement and that the only criteria are to be able to get from A to B as fast as possible, as directly as possible and as boringly as possible as though nothing existed beween A and B. In fact, as much as I would like to extoll the virtues of "slow travel", the TERs aren't even slow, they are normal: TGVs belong to a dystopian disconnection of person and place. Is 70 mph really too slow a pace?
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