Cycling UK Forum

There may well be a debate to be had about the relationship between China and the rest of the world. However, that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about whether we should be seeking reparations from China for Covid19. It's based on the premise that Covid19 was either a deliberate act or a mishap at a Chinese biological weapons or research facility. There is no evidence for either - even Donald Trump's top spooks (the Office of the Director of National Intelligence) defied him at an early stage of the pandemic by pointing out there was no evidence to support his 'blame China' stance. On the contrary, Coronaviruses have long been recognised as a potential pandemic due to their infectiousness and potential to mutate into deadlier forms. Exactly what we've seen this year.

Having a debate about punishing China is letting Donald Trump off the hook for failing his people with his sheer incompetence, negligence and reliance on his anti-science lunatic base Any serious, literate person should understand that this is a natural disaster, best dealt with by the scientific experts, and not a crackpot conspiracy to be dealt with by lunatic populist world leaders and their legions of Facebook-educated morons.

And note the contrast with the excellent international cooperation in so many other aspects of our response to the outbreak.

Jonathan

DevonDamo wrote:There may well be a debate to be had about the relationship between China and the rest of the world. However, that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about whether we should be seeking reparations from China for Covid19. It's based on the premise that Covid19 was either a deliberate act or a mishap at a Chinese biological weapons or research facility. There is no evidence for either - even Donald Trump's top spooks (the Office of the Director of National Intelligence) defied him at an early stage of the pandemic by pointing out there was no evidence to support his 'blame China' stance. On the contrary, Coronaviruses have long been recognised as a potential pandemic due to their infectiousness and potential to mutate into deadlier forms. Exactly what we've seen this year.

Having a debate about punishing China is letting Donald Trump off the hook for failing his people with his sheer incompetence, negligence and reliance on his anti-science lunatic base Any serious, literate person should understand that this is a natural disaster, best dealt with by the scientific experts, and not a crackpot conspiracy to be dealt with by lunatic populist world leaders and their legions of Facebook-educated morons.

I think that that is a fair summation of things.

I also agree with factual comments (4th December, repeated below) earlier in the thread about negative aspects of China today and in the recent past. However that in no way should be taken as being content with things in the U.K. were things might be not be perfect but they are somewhat better than in China and many other countries too. Judging by recent events in Hong Kong the population there are not at all welcoming China’s way of doing things, perhaps I misunderstand but the situation says a lot to me about how fortunate we are compared to the place which we once governed.

mercalia wrote:well China is already a dictatorship with abysmal human rights record and we have been entering the 2 power blocks scene with China flexing its muscles with rampant theft of intellectual property from the west it seems. Not a cold war but an economic war is/will be being waged.

“Any serious, literate person should understand that this is a natural disaster,” sorry to snip and I hope that I’m not quoting too much out of context.

Personally I’m satisfied that the start of CV19 was in no way an intended event and even if it had been governments all over the World hold the responsibility for its spread (into their countries) and the distress of their populations. The Chinese have certainly suffered due to CV19 but it’s occurrence was, IMHO, an avoidable event rather than a natural disaster. Of course the origin of CV19 will always be questioned but IMHO China’s responsibility in the mater is trivial in comparison to the slow and poor responses of other countries (including our own) in managing the virus and stamping it out. To blame and demonise the Chinese for this pandemic does indeed allow those who hold the responsibility for the consequences of it in their own countries to escape judgement.

Carlton green wrote:I also agree with factual comments (4th December, repeated below) earlier in the thread about negative aspects of China today and in the recent past. However that in no way should be taken as being content with things in the U.K. were things might be not be perfect but they are somewhat better than in China and many other countries too. Judging by recent events in Hong Kong the population there are not at all welcoming China’s way of doing things, perhaps I misunderstand but the situation says a lot to me about how fortunate we are compared to the place which we once governed.

I think it's important to understand that China is well behind the curve when it comes to 'modernisation' but it is progressing pretty quickly.

The UK on the other hand seems to be going backwards.
Perhaps we'll meet in the middle...

China have taken steps to minimise the possibility of a repeat performance. They have outlawed the sale of wild animals for food, it’s a start.

Marcus Aurelius wrote:China have taken steps to minimise the possibility of a repeat performance. They have outlawed the sale of wild animals for food, it’s a start.

The big question is whether they are going to enforce those laws. I've worked in countries with strict wildlife laws where breaking those laws is "the norm", known about and happening all the time - to the point where any day the Police wanted a bust they could walk in and arrest quite a few individuals but they never do!

Ian

Psamathe wrote:

Marcus Aurelius wrote:China have taken steps to minimise the possibility of a repeat performance. They have outlawed the sale of wild animals for food, it’s a start.

The big question is whether they are going to enforce those laws. I've worked in countries with strict wildlife laws where breaking those laws is "the norm", known about and happening all the time - to the point where any day the Police wanted a bust they could walk in and arrest quite a few individuals but they never do!

In

Fox hunting?

I suspect given the link between global pestilence and wild animals combined with the fairly bad press and embarrassment they might be fairly keen to have a go at enforcement.

kwackers wrote:

Psamathe wrote:

Marcus Aurelius wrote:China have taken steps to minimise the possibility of a repeat performance. They have outlawed the sale of wild animals for food, it’s a start.

The big question is whether they are going to enforce those laws. I've worked in countries with strict wildlife laws where breaking those laws is "the norm", known about and happening all the time - to the point where any day the Police wanted a bust they could walk in and arrest quite a few individuals but they never do!

In

Fox hunting?

I suspect given the link between global pestilence and wild animals combined with the fairly bad press and embarrassment they might be fairly keen to have a go at enforcement.

I was considering wildlife (e.g. monkeys) sold as pets in South America. e.g. Belen Market, Iquitos (and many other places)

Ian

Psamathe wrote:I was considering wildlife (e.g. monkeys) sold as pets in South America. e.g. Belen Market, Iquitos

Ian

Sorry, thought we were talking about China enforcing their laws...

kwackers wrote:

Psamathe wrote:I was considering wildlife (e.g. monkeys) sold as pets in South America. e.g. Belen Market, Iquitos

Ian

Sorry, thought we were talking about China enforcing their laws...

My point being that countries can make laws but fail to enforce them (and China would be far from the first to make wildlife laws but not enforce them). Hence it becomes about both laws AND enforcement of those laws.

I don't know these laws being referred to above but if it's China closing wildlife markets in Feb then those laws only apply to wildlife for food and do not include wildlife used for traditional medicine. e.g. even this summer the Chinese government’s COVID-19 clinical guidance listed products containing bear bile.

EDIT: Just read earlier comment and they do refer to the wildlife for food and so are likely the Feb changes (that don't include traditional medicine).

Ian