Escooter trial to start

Nearholmer
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Re: Escooter trial to start

Post by Nearholmer »

It's complicated and there are several different categories:
Thanks for that.

I’d lost the fact that there was a category between 250W bikes and 11kW ‘light motorcycles’.
awavey
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Re: Escooter trial to start

Post by awavey »

Vorpal wrote: 29 Apr 2022, 12:16pm E-scooters, like folding bikes, go free on public transport in Norway. I very often see one or two people with e-scooters waiting on the platform when I take the train. Most trains I use have at least one person with an e-scooter on, and my folding bike shares the bike space with an e-scooter a couple of times per week.

Honestly, as far as I am concerned, they are something else to encourage people to use active travel or at least, get out of their cars.

That they are still illegal in the UK borders on the ridiculous.
whats "active travel" about them though, if the battery is doing all the work ? I saw well it looked like an ebike, but the rider was just sitting on a saddle, not pedalling at all, didnt look like they had any interest in pedalling and it was doing 20-25mph, at least she wore a helmet I guess, and you can say well she wasnt driving a car, but maybe she could have used a bus, walked, cycled instead, so what have we gained ? I just have visions of this ending with the human race in those electric chairs from Wall-E.
Stevek76
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Re: Escooter trial to start

Post by Stevek76 »

https://road.cc/content/news/rospa-e-sc ... les-292339

About the opposite conclusion to the latest pacts report.

Whilst the pacts one was stuffed rather full of near anecdata (various unverified hospital information) this one indicates an unbelievably low collision rate, sticks purely to stats 19 with no effort to account for underreporting and seems to totally gloss over where its estimate of distance travelled comes from.
Last edited by Stevek76 on 1 May 2022, 12:12pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PH
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Re: Escooter trial to start

Post by PH »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 30 Apr 2022, 11:55am
Nearholmer wrote: 29 Apr 2022, 8:02pm Interesting that our economy has given rise to a group of workers who now subsist at prosperity levels that were pretty much left behind c1970.
:(
It's a bit OT for this thread, but it you or Nearholmer want to re-open one of the previous Deliveroo threads I'll happily share my experience from doing it as my primary source of income for the past 4+ years and maybe dispel some of the incorrect assumptions in this thread.
PH
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Re: Escooter trial to start

Post by PH »

Nearholmer wrote: 29 Apr 2022, 7:04pm TBH, I think we need to continue two categories, keeping “electric mopeds” for Highway use, and maybe consider not limiting the speed of the other things directly, but maybe limit power to a lower level than now, because after all its power that creates speed. People can always pedal a bit harder if they want to get more power (speed).
Limiting speed is an issue, stopping people de-limiting it probably a bigger one, in either case I doubt restricting power can be used in the same way as it is with an E-bike. A scooter powerful enough to get a largish adult up many urban hilly streets, is going to be powerful enough to propel them at 20mph+ on the flat.
Nearholmer
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Re: Escooter trial to start

Post by Nearholmer »

Good point. No human assistance on a scooter.

My point about people subsisting on poor wages wasn’t really about deliveroo riders, it was more about people who travel to and from work on e-bikes because that is the only transport they can afford (which excludes those who choose e-bikes for other reasons). They are doing exactly what people did in the 1950s and 60s on dead-feeble mopeds, which largely died-out as people became able to afford more capable personal transport.
millimole
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Re: Escooter trial to start

Post by millimole »


Nearholmer wrote:Good point. No human assistance on a scooter.

My point about people subsisting on poor wages wasn’t really about deliveroo riders, it was more about people who travel to and from work on e-bikes because that is the only transport they can afford (which excludes those who choose e-bikes for other reasons). They are doing exactly what people did in the 1950s and 60s on dead-feeble mopeds, which largely died-out as people became able to afford more capable personal transport.
But the "dead feeble moped" still exists in its legal form.
I ride an electric licenced e-moped with insurance, numberplate etc.
They are available from a number of (Chinese) makers - mine is NIU.
The reason they are not used, as opposed to e-Scooters is the regulatory regime.

The" dead feeble moped" is treated like a motorbike, the e-Scooter is treated like a toy.

My NIU Uqi has an indicated top speed of 29mph (probably nearer 27), modest acceleration, requires insurance (surprisingly expensive), a driving licence, zero tax, and will need an mot if it lasts that long - why bother with all this if you can buy an e-Scooter and 'just ride it'?
(I have a full motorcycle licence)

Should the regulations for e-Scooters rise up to the level of mopeds, or are e-mopeds over-regulated?
Leicester; Riding my Hetchins since 1971; Day rides on my Dawes; Going to the shops on a Decathlon Hoprider
Nearholmer
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Re: Escooter trial to start

Post by Nearholmer »

But the "dead feeble moped" still exists in its legal form.
I do understand that, having been reminded (by Jonathon?) yesterday that the category still exists

I’m coming round to the thought that what I’m really interested in in this debate is shared-use paths, because they are such a vital component of mobility locally (I live in Milton Keynes), and the appropriateness of powered vehicles for use on them. With that in mind, 28mph seems too fast for that context, as I think you said yesterday, so I’d continue the ban on even ‘dead feeble’ mopeds on shared use paths.

As regards using them on the Highway, whether or not the rider is trained, licensed, insured, or helmeted, IMO they are only safe where the rest of the traffic is very light, and limited to 30mph, sort of 1950s urban road conditions, and I wonder if part of their unpopularity is that people instinctively recognise that and don’t use them because such traffic conditions are so rare.

To be able to use very light, human-powered or very-low-powered vehicles safely and confidently on the Highway, I really think the only answer is to calm motor traffic right down, and thin it out, by creating “calm zones” or “calm corridors”.
millimole
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Re: Escooter trial to start

Post by millimole »

I don't think I'd argue with any of that!
The only change I'd make would be to increase the AM speed limit to 50km/h - OR do away with the category entirely as its a historic anomaly.
Leicester; Riding my Hetchins since 1971; Day rides on my Dawes; Going to the shops on a Decathlon Hoprider
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simonineaston
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Re: Escooter trial to start

Post by simonineaston »

I'll happily share my experience
You could write a book and self-publish - if it's interesting enough, you might be able to retire from delivering!
ps I know a bloke who does, pretty much, that. He's written several non-fiction books and makes enough off them for beer money. I see him down the pub now and then :-)
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Jdsk
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Re: Escooter trial to start

Post by Jdsk »

Stevek76 wrote: 30 Apr 2022, 4:48pm https://road.cc/content/news/rospa-e-sc ... les-292339

About the opposite conclusion to the latest pacts report.

Whilst the pacts one was stuffed rather full of near anecdata (various unverified hospital information) this one indicates an unbelievably low collision rate, sticks purely to stats 19 with no effort to account for underreporting and seems to totally gloss over where it's estimate of distance travelled comes from.
The RoSPA report:
"UK E-scooter Safety Report"
https://www.rospa.com/getmedia/f29815f4 ... 250422.pdf

Given the emerging use of E-scooters, and the fact that 2020 was an outlier year because of the coronavirus pandemic, our conclusions remain limited and indicative. Notwithstanding these factors, the key findings are as follows:
• E-scooters are safer than many other travel modes, with significantly lower casualty rates (0.66 collisions per million miles travelled) compared to bicycles which were 5 times more likely to be involved in a collision (3.33 per million miles) and motorbikes which were 9 times more likely to be involved in a collision (5.88 per million miles).
• The vast majority (94%) of incidents occurred in local authorities where there was no E-scooter rental scheme running.
• The risk to pedestrians, often the perceived most vulnerable group, is low. Collisions with pedestrians accounted for just 13% of incidents. In comparison, 79% of crash events were collisions involving a larger and powered vehicle, such as a motorbike, car, truck or lorry. It has not been possible to derive causation from this DfT dataset beyond vehicle/ casualty involvement.
In 2020, DfT recorded, in its Stats19 database, 461 crashes that involved E-scooters in Great Britain. In addition, DfT estimated there to have been 484 casualties, including one fatality. Our review is based on the published dataset for the 461 crashes; and our calculations are derived from the 431 casualties provided within that untransformed dataset.
Our analysis demonstrates that, despite the continued debate surrounding the safety of E-scooters, we found that the risk of E-scooter accidents is lower than the risk of accidents on traditional modes such as motorbikes and bicycles.

Jonathan
Last edited by Jdsk on 1 May 2022, 10:36am, edited 2 times in total.
Jdsk
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Re: Escooter trial to start

Post by Jdsk »

The PACTS report:

"The Safety of Private e-Scooters in the UK":
https://www.pacts.org.uk/wp-content/upl ... Report.pdf

PACTS recommends that the DfT
• takes immediate action to address dangerous and illegal private e-scooter use;
• undertakes a thorough public consultation before making any decision on the
legalisation of e-scooters;
• commissions further research; and,
• if the Government decides to legalise use of private e-scooters, it should adopt regulations for their construction and use as set out below:
• Maximum possible speed of 12.5mph (20km/h)
• Maximum continuous rated motor power of 250 W
• Anti-tampering mechanisms should be included in construction. Tampering should be prohibited by law
• Minimum front wheel size of 12 inches (30.5cm) and minimum rear wheel size of 10 inches (25.5cm)
• Two independently controlled braking devices, one acting on the front wheel and one acting on the rear wheel
• Lighting to be mandatory at all times
• Maximum unladen weight of 20kg
• An audible warning device to be mandatory
• Helmet wearing to be mandatory
• Riding on the footway (pavement) or footpath to be prohibited
• Rider age limit of at least 16 years
• Carrying of a passenger to be prohibited
• Drink driving, dangerous or careless riding, and handheld mobile phone use to be prohibited
• In-person rider training and third-party insurance are recommended.
Whatever legislation is proposed, it is important that the police retain their current road traffic policing powers, provisions, and offences in respect of e-scooters.


Jonathan
reohn2
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Re: Escooter trial to start

Post by reohn2 »

I think the problem revolves around more than our fair share of morons/nutters using roads and paths,along with a LOT less than our fair shape of effective policing.

IMO,the e-bike should be restricted by law to 20mph with pedal assist no licence needed.
E-scooters to 10mph on shared use paths and 5mph on footways,again no licence.
Next two wheeler step up should be maximum 125cc/15bhp motorcycles/scooters with L plates or full A or A2 motorcycle licence age 17years old minimum.
I have dream(sorry) these catagories would be rigidly enforced by a effective and determined policing.

I would also limit motorcycle power output to 80bhp or there abouts with a higher powered catagory upto 150bhp needing a further "advanced" test to ride one.
Don't get me on about over powered over blown private cars,I'm constantly amazed how drivers cannot handle the vehicles they drive,there most definitely should be diffent classes of private motors based on size and power,but that's for another thread.

What say you?
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Nearholmer
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Re: Escooter trial to start

Post by Nearholmer »

The vast majority (94%) of incidents occurred in local authorities where there was no E-scooter rental scheme running.
This might be one of those “true, but uninformative” statements, because the rental schemes have largely been tried in areas with decent to good shared-use paths, where conflict with motor traffic is likely to be less than in non-rental towns that lack such provision, where conflict with motor traffic and riding on foot-ways is more likely to occur.

In short, the issue may be “decent paths to use them on or not”, rather than “rental or not”, although it’s likely that private ones are owned by less respectful users, simply because using one involves “bucking the system”.

Lots of possibilities, all tangled-up together, rather than obvious cause and affect (effect?).
axel_knutt
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Re: Escooter trial to start

Post by axel_knutt »

I'm still waiting to see some data on what E-scooters are replacing, my guess is that they're replacing as many pedestrian journeys as car journeys. No doubt they'll also be creating their own share of new demand, too.
Nearholmer wrote: 1 May 2022, 8:34am To be able to use very light, human-powered or very-low-powered vehicles safely and confidently on the Highway, I really think the only answer is to calm motor traffic right down, and thin it out, by creating “calm zones” or “calm corridors”.
I've been arguing for a network of low/no traffic zones for years, but cyclists just keep right on campaigning for more cycle paths.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
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