Escooter trial to start

[Vorpal]

E-scooters, like folding bikes, go free on public transport in Norway. I very often see one or two people with e-scooters waiting on the platform when I take the train. Most trains I use have at least one person with an e-scooter on, and my folding bike shares the bike space with an e-scooter a couple of times per week.

Honestly, as far as I am concerned, they are something else to encourage people to use active travel or at least, get out of their cars.

That they are still illegal in the UK borders on the ridiculous.

[Jdsk]

AFAICT the Minister's evidence to the Select Committee is only available in video so far:
https://committees.parliament.uk/event/ ... e-session/

Pending that here's the BBC News coverage:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61250302

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

Latest "news" clearly signals that will be made legal but with greater regulatory effort, including I suspect helmets, which will no doubt carry forward to bicycles.

I doubt that about bikes... but please could you give a bit more detail about how you see that sequence playing out.

Thanks

Jonathan

[simonineaston]

There was quite a good article on Wed, I think, in the Graun here
I'm all in favour of any sort of development that reduces passenger vehicle levels, 'leccy or not. Bristol's streets are constantly and continually clogging up with cars, and great porky SUVs, and anything that helps is welcome. Until the gov. of the day reluctantly begins to grapple with the paradox that we're a nation wedded to road transport, that's how it will continue to be.
Personally, I don't mind much - I can put up with sharing my cycle space with Johnny-come-lately. There's the occasional difficult challenge - a couple of youths shot passed me y'day, two up on a fast electric bike, wanging their way across startled traffic at the mini roundabout in the middle of St Werb.s. No helmets, passengers' feet dangling (no pegs), doing some considerable speed. And that sort of occurrence is getting more frequent. But like I say, better that than the same sort of behaviour undertaken in 1200kg of metal, thank you.

[reohn2]

That they are still illegal in the UK borders on the ridiculous.

I couldn't agree more.
And restricting e-bike to a default 20mph instead of the present 15.5mph would be step forward too IMHO.

[Vorpal]

That they are still illegal in the UK borders on the ridiculous.

I couldn't agree more.
And restricting e-bike to a default 20mph instead of the present 15.5mph would be step forward too IMHO.

The simplest thing would be to do what Norway did & pass a law that classifies micro mobility devices, such as e-scooters, electric skateboards, Segways, monowheels, etc. as bicycles, subject to the same limitations.

Powering them to 20 mph, instead of 15.5 could then be considered separately.

[reohn2]

That they are still illegal in the UK borders on the ridiculous.

I couldn't agree more.
And restricting e-bike to a default 20mph instead of the present 15.5mph would be step forward too IMHO.

The simplest thing would be to do what Norway did & pass a law that classifies micro mobility devices, such as e-scooters, electric skateboards, Segways, monowheels, etc. as bicycles, subject to the same limitations.

Powering them to 20 mph, instead of 15.5 could then be considered separately.

Yes on both counts for me,something needs doing to stop burdening UK roads with ever more single ocupant 2tonne vehicles!

[Nearholmer]

The speed question around battery powered things isn’t a simple one IMO.

At one level one could say that a pushbike can whip along at 20+mph, so why not all these other things? And, on the Highway I think I’d say: fine, they’re just exotic forms of very light moped.

Where it gets more difficult is on shared-use paths. Now, again people can, in theory, ride pushbikes dangerously fast on such paths, but on the whole (some kids excepted) they tend not to. We have oodles of miles of shared use path where I live, and crazy cycling simply isn’t a significant problem, and e-scooter riding isn’t either (dumping the hire ones is), whereas things seem to get a bit iffy with e-bikes, and the illegal de-restricted ones go beyond iffy into ruddy dangerous at times.

I think there’s a bit of psychology in there somewhere whereby people act/behave differently when powered, and 250W continuous is actually a fair bit of power to put down in the context of shared use paths. For short trips people don’t worry about conserving the charge, so will use full power.

TBH, I think we need to continue two categories, keeping “electric mopeds” for Highway use, and maybe consider not limiting the speed of the other things directly, but maybe limit power to a lower level than now, because after all its power that creates speed. People can always pedal a bit harder if they want to get more power (speed).

If only we could have roads that are safe to use in/on ultra-light forms of powered transport, the problem would be largely solved!

[Bmblbzzz]

We have had a local E scooter trial running since we moved here last summer. Generally they are not a problem. Mostly used by young people. You do see the occasional moron riding on the pavement. And there are occasional illegal ones which mainly seem to use pavements. I dont have a problem with them because a single bus journey costs £3 which to me is outrageous.

Al

Therein lies a very relevent problem in the UK today,when public ​transport is run as a profit making business and not as a public service,people are forced to use other means,and in a world of convenience people will seek the most convenient way to get to work.
Unfortunately if that mode is illegal enough people will use it if it saves them money they can ill afford to spend,especially in the current economic climate.
Some may say why not cycle?
The e-scooter beats the bike hands down for short haul convenience,no pedalling involved(especially if you have a physical job or you're on your feet all day),or public transport doesn't meet the needs of the public(think unsocial hours working),plus you can fold a scooter up and maybe fit it in your locker,under a desk or propped up in a corner of an office at work and can be tucked away anywhere at home.

Public transport should fill the needs of the public IMHO and needs a good looking at by people with joined up thinking and the public in mind,with a view to changing it for the better,meeting the needs of the public and not those who currently run it.

A related factor is the growth of the gig economy. The majority of Deliveroo-ists I see are on electric bikes. I've also seen some on e-scooters, as well as other forms of transport from conventional pedal cycle to SUV, but e-bikes are the majority (in a central city area – as ever, things might be different in suburbs or rural parts). The majority of these Deliveroo e-bikes are homemade conversions, battery packs held on by copious windings of gaffer tape and plastic bags – presumably conversions of what the 'roos started off pedalling.

Other gig economy jobs, from warehousing to literal gigs, also tend not to suit public transport but don't pay enough for a decent car. Until recently, the main option was an old banger. An e-bike or e-scooter is cheaper to run and buy, not much slower in urban settings, and has far fewer externalised costs (pollution, noise, crashes, occupying road space – both parking and moving, etc).

[Nearholmer]

Yep, I was watching deliveroo guys today, and exactly as you say.

The points you make are sound, and strongly suggest that e-bikes are filling the same transport niche that was filled by dead-feeble mopeds until mopeds became FS1Es in the 1970s, I’m thinking the of the cyclemaster, velosolex, NSU quickly, and things like that.

Interesting that our economy has given rise to a group of workers who now subsist at prosperity levels that were pretty much left behind c1970.

[millimole]

The points you make are sound, and strongly suggest that e-bikes are filling the same transport niche that was filled by dead-feeble mopeds until mopeds became FS1Es in the 1970s, I’m thinking the of the cyclemaster, velosolex, NSU quickly, and things like that.

That market is increasingly catered for by legal e-mopeds limited to 28mph - such as the one I ride (NIU Uqi) - registered, insured and requiring the rider to have a driving licence.

The barrier to adoption of legal 'dead feeble mopeds' (yes, they are) is the licence, insurance and other regulatory requirements. E-Scooters side-step all of this providing an alternative much more suited to the 21st century, rather than a throwback to the 1950s.

Its worth noting that the original mopeds (now class P vehicles I believe) were permitted on many cycle paths including places like Stevenage.

The question is - if you want to use these two groups as being similar - do you regulate e-Scooters like mopeds, or do you deregulate e-mopeds?

[Nearholmer]

I think ‘electric mopeds’ are allowed a power output up to 11kW (15hp).

IMO, it is a difficult, unsuitable rating, for both many situations on the road (too low), and for use on shared-use paths (too high).

It would be courting death to use an 11kW vehicle on the roads around here, because traffic speeds are too high for it, and using that power at multi-lane roundabouts while mixed-in with cars, buses, lorries etc would be, frankly, dangerous. I tried it many years ago with a very light motorcycle (17hp IIRC) and quickly gave that idea up and went back to a pushbike on shared use paths.

OTH, 11kW is way too high for use in shared spaces, which is why mopeds have for donkeys years been banned from shared-use paths.

To me, 11kW feels about right for roads, in a context of very calm traffic, maybe 30mph limit or less, and not so dense as to render moped users invisible in the thick of it.

I honestly think that different rules need to be applied to light powered vehicles for use in a shared space context and a ‘road’ context, and I think that the way to enable and encourage the use of the “moped” class is to get road traffic under control. The old-style 1950s and 60s moped worked in the context of traffic at that time, which was a lot slower and less dense than now.

[Jdsk]

I think ‘electric mopeds’ are allowed a power output up to 11kW (15hp).

It's complicated and there are several different categories:
https://www.gov.uk/ride-motorcycle-mope ... quirements

Jonathan

[millimole]

I think ‘electric mopeds’ are allowed a power output up to 11kW (15hp).

It's complicated and there are several different categories:
https://www.gov.uk/ride-motorcycle-mope ... quirements

Jonathan

Ah yes AM category (P is or was the licence class) 45km/h equates roughly to 28mph.
Id agree, based on my experience of riding mine, that this is too slow for suburban and rural roads - it's safe, but very uncomfortable. But 28mph (indicated) is ideal for urban areas (excepting urban motorways of course).
On the other hand, it's way too fast for sharing with unpowered /unmodified bicycles.

[Bmblbzzz]

Interesting that our economy has given rise to a group of workers who now subsist at prosperity levels that were pretty much left behind c1970.