Air Source Heat Pumps

[Jdsk]

,,, I listened to Caroline Lucas recently extolling the benefits of renewables but not a word on storage.

Lucas, 7 January 2022:

"Investment in renewable energy should be accelerated.  Wind energy, both onshore and offshore, is cheaper for electricity generation than gas, as is solar. The UK is now home to the world’s largest offshore windfarm.  We urgently need investment in a smarter, more flexible grid and better energy storage to tide us through periods of low wind speeds. "

https://www.newstatesman.com/spotlight/ ... ergy-bills

OK there was a word just no specifics

Green Party policy supports the use of a variety of technologies for energy storage. And that's the sensible approach. There is no one best for all settings and we need to discover which work well in practice, and to develop new modes. And. possibly most importantly, we need to implement tax and subsidy systems that promote their use.

Jonathan

https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/D ... sector.pdf

[Jdsk]

The grid should develop to support it, probably including incentives for local power storage to smooth demand, in electric vehicles or otherwise.

I see this trotted out a great deal.
Electric vehicles may be able to support a very short time boost - and of course they will need to be recharged - I can't see people plugging in their vehicle at night with the expectation of having a fully charged vehicle for use in the morning only to find it has been drained of charge and not recharged.

Calculations of the possible effects of Vehicle to Grid technology are complex.

But here's a recent example from the UK:
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/c ... g-charging

And their conclusion:

V2G has the potential to save £3.5bn per year in areas such as grid infrastructure reinforcement and generation, as a result of the support it offers during periods of increased demand.

By 2030, the UK could have almost 11 million EVs on the road. If 50% of these vehicles were V2G enabled, this would open up 22 TWh of flexible EV discharging capacity per year and could provide ~16GW of daily flexible capacity to the grid.

Jonathan

[rjb]

Several energy providers are running v2g trials to gather data. When electric vehicles become more widespread then these trials could become the norm.
Here's the current octopus trial details. https://octopusev.com/powerloop

I believe the intention is to flatten out the evening peak in demand between 4-7pm. Of course if energy pricing moves to a time of day charging basis then this may achieve a similar outcome.

[mjr]

This example of a domestic heat pump never exceeds a CoP of 3.3, so it will never be competitive running off electricity that's four times more expensive than gas. Neither will this one unless it's a very mild day.

Are those real, current heat pumps? The first says 2010 and the second "typical".

And gas should not be a quarter the price of electricity, in a fair world. Edit to add: and that does not matter to me much, as no mains gas here, the CoP to beat oil or LPG tanks is nearer 3 and we're achieving that even in winter.

[Carlton green]

Lucas, 7 January 2022:

"Investment in renewable energy should be accelerated.  Wind energy, both onshore and offshore, is cheaper for electricity generation than gas, as is solar. The UK is now home to the world’s largest offshore windfarm.  We urgently need investment in a smarter, more flexible grid and better energy storage to tide us through periods of low wind speeds. "

https://www.newstatesman.com/spotlight/ ... ergy-bills

OK there was a word just no specifics

Green Party policy supports the use of a variety of technologies for energy storage. And that's the sensible approach. There is no one best for all settings and we need to discover which work well in practice, and to develop new modes. And. possibly most importantly, we need to implement tax and subsidy systems that promote their use.

Jonathan


Screenshot 2022-02-18 at 17.21.40.png
https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/D ... sector.pdf

Words, just words. We’ve been looking for high capacity energy storage for decades and simply not come up with anything that works well enough to be scaled up and used by the general public.

Whether we like it or not we do need new and more Nuclear Powered Electricity Generation to see us through until such time as scalable energy storage is actually with us and built. Nuclear has its problems but most of them are historic and what problems that remain can be managed.

An interesting thread though, certainly informative. A wise old friend of mine investigated various heating systems for his refurbished and extended home, he felt that by some margin his best bang over buck was insulation. IIRC he also burns wood, which for him is next to free, in an efficient stove.

[Jdsk]

OK there was a word just no specifics

Green Party policy supports the use of a variety of technologies for energy storage. And that's the sensible approach. There is no one best for all settings and we need to discover which work well in practice, and to develop new modes. And. possibly most importantly, we need to implement tax and subsidy systems that promote their use.

Words, just words. We’ve been looking for high capacity energy storage for decades and simply not come up with anything that works well enough to be scaled up and used by the general public.

There are plenty of numbers to go with the words. I recommend FES 2021 as it includes several scenarios and the numbers relate to the UK:
https://www.nationalgrideso.com/future- ... s/fes-2021

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

We’ve been looking for high capacity energy storage for decades and simply not come up with anything that works well enough to be scaled up and used by the general public.

Even if restricted to current (!) technologies there are already plenty out there, including batteries (conventional, flow and vehicle to grid), hydrogen generation, and domestic thermal storage.

Why do you think that they can't be scaled up?

Thanks

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

Several energy providers are running v2g trials to gather data. When electric vehicles become more widespread then these trials could become the norm.
...

I believe the intention is to flatten out the evening peak in demand between 4-7pm. Of course if energy pricing moves to a time of day charging basis then this may achieve a similar outcome.

Exactly. Vehicle to grid requires novel control and financial systems to optimise the benefits, as do all storage technologies and all local generation technologies.

The limiting factors aren't the technology, they're getting the incentives in place quickly enough in a complex supranational market.

Jonathan

[Carlton green]

We’ve been looking for high capacity energy storage for decades and simply not come up with anything that works well enough to be scaled up and used by the general public.

Even if restricted to current (!) technologies there are already plenty out there, including batteries (conventional, flow and vehicle to grid), hydrogen generation, and domestic thermal storage.

Why do you think that they can't be scaled up?

Thanks

Jonathan

These technologies haven’t been scaled up to the level needed and I don’t see that changing much, some slow growth perhaps but nationally we’re talking relatively massive amounts of energy. Scaling up is also polluting in its own way in that extraction of materials needed for say large batteries pollutes and so does manufacturing in general. There are no easy answers and there are no clear winners for the future, we drift along ever hopeful of The Solution.

[uwidavid]

I've been following the increase in CO2 in the atmosphere for over a decade
https://gml.noaa.gov/ccgg/trends/
As you can see it is consistently going up (despite covid) it is not even leveling off - the rate of increase is increasing.
I am of the opinion that any small changes we make are only delaying the inevitable (and maybe only by a few years).
We should probably directing our energies to minimize the impact of the inevitable.
On the same site you can also see that all the other greenhouse gases are also rising (CH4 being a bit enigmatic), but SF6 has risen sharply from almost zero.

[Jdsk]

We’ve been looking for high capacity energy storage for decades and simply not come up with anything that works well enough to be scaled up and used by the general public.

Even if restricted to current (!) technologies there are already plenty out there, including batteries (conventional, flow and vehicle to grid), hydrogen generation, and domestic thermal storage.

Why do you think that they can't be scaled up?

These technologies haven’t been scaled up to the level needed and I don’t see that changing much, some slow growth perhaps but nationally we’re talking relatively massive amounts of energy. Scaling up is also polluting in its own way in that extraction of materials needed for say large batteries pollutes and so does manufacturing in general. There are no easy answers and there are no clear winners for the future, we drift along ever hopeful of The Solution.

They haven't been scaled up yet. They can be.

Of course doing that will have some environmental impact. But it will be a lot less than not doing it, which is what matters.

Jonathan

[Carlton green]

Things that can be scaled up, like wind turbines and solar farms, have been. Other stuff to do with energy storage hasn’t proved possible to ramp up in the same way and hence hasn’t been done.

The best answer out there is more Nuclear and particularly the small modular reactors, it’s not a perfect option but it’s the best in terms of reliably keeping the lights on - other might be happy for their and their neighbour’s electrify supply to fail but I am definitely not. As and when mass power storage schemes, at National Grid level, are eventually available then renewables might become enough to power the country.

[Jdsk]

Things that can be scaled up, like wind turbines and solar farms, have been. Other stuff to do with energy storage hasn’t proved possible to ramp up in the same way and hence hasn’t been done.

That implies that it has been tried and has failed. This isn't the case. The existing technologies listed above all work, but they haven't been scaled up because the incentives haven't been lined up appropriately. That's predominantly a political issue.

Jonathan

[Carlton green]

Things that can be scaled up, like wind turbines and solar farms, have been. Other stuff to do with energy storage hasn’t proved possible to ramp up in the same way and hence hasn’t been done.

That implies that it has been tried and has failed. This isn't the case. The existing technologies listed above all work, but they haven't been scaled up because the incentives haven't been lined up appropriately. That's predominantly a political issue.

Jonathan

The reasons why things aren’t scaled up are usually practical rather than political.

Decades ago wind power wasn’t practical but design advances - which took a very long time - have changed that. I like wind power, good green stuff, but it’s not rock steady dependable in the way that fossil fuel and nuclear are. Same for solar, good stuff but .... For now we need Nuclear, and we need to develop mass power storage at National Grid level. The technology that you suggest just doesn’t do that mass storage and it has been around for some time without going anywhere much in particular.

In the case of new nuclear the reasons for not advancing have been more political than practical.

[pwa]

Over the last week or so the wind farms around here have been shut down to protect them from high winds. Wind is no use at all when a storm arrives. I imagine solar is pretty limp at the moment too, with the sky being overcast much of the time lately. Domestically we need fuel most in the winter months and that is exactly the time that solar and wind power become a bit unreliable. I see an issue there.

Friends of ours, who live just a few hundred metres from us, were unlucky enough to lose their electricity supply due to the storm on Friday and spent about 12 hours without central heating. I think they use gas, but even gas central heating needs electricity to work. They were glad of their log burner. All National Grid electricity is a bit iffy around here in severe storms, regardless of whether it comes from nuclear, wind, solar, or gas burning. And regardless of whether it is heating a home via a heat pump or by running a gas central heating system. I wonder if a more robust and reliable network is practicable.