Yet another reason to avoid carbon frames

[pliptrot]

The utility cyclist: if you had read Brucey's penultimate post, you could have saved yourself the time taken on your last post, which does reveal how vexed you have become over this. Someone above suggested that the processes used in composite cycle parts manufacture are less exacting than those in aviation: there is some evidence on this. And given the stakes involved, that is not good enough. Paraphrasing Brucey : if you pay Cervelo prices, you deserve the best. Evidently that is not available.

[thelawnet]

This was on a titanium frame.

for2.jpg

Apparently the fork failed cycling along a smooth road with no potholes, and has been found to have catastrophic voids. User has suffered broken neck, paralysis, among other things, and is still in a coma.

Frame builder makes their own Ti, and forks god knows where they come from, but somewhere in China/Taiwan presumably.

And in this era this gets lots of media/forum gossip, how many people died/paralysed because of metal failure in bicycles long before social media was a thing?
Cherry picking with anecdotal 'evidence' with no direct comparison to other materials nor coming up with any actual data/research regards failures or resistance to impact in usual cycle incidents including RTCs means this fear mongering is utter nonsense and not evidence based. Some on here claim to be 'experts' and they themselves cherry pick a sole manufacturer who goes to the nth degree in buttock covering in their information regards their products. In a litigious nation such as the USA it's hardly surprising that RITCHEY go to such lengths to protect themselves.

As for where components are made, this might have some bearing but not the country necessarily, Taiwan being one of, if not the leading countries in CF cycle frame/component manufacture. You could equally -by the numbers, get a not so good build from a smaller 'in house' builder, but you pay more for individual care over a build than from mass manufacturing so you'd expect there to be a much lower failure rate, is the reality true, I wouldn't know.

My race frame came with a fair and reasonably comprehensive 5 year warranty, I've never had to use it, earlier this spring my carbon tubular (front) wheel hit a significant pothole at 25mph, despite the huge jolt to myself it and the frame was undamaged. I occaisonally ride on a pair of 30 year old carbon composite forks (with the previous mentioned Triple butted steel frame).

I've had no issues with carbon at all, my commuter/utility do it all - carbon seat stays/forks/post and bars, has had some very heavy loading (over 170kg on more than a few occasions) and plenty of high speed/rough ground riding, oh and the small matter of being hit and run from behind, a side swipe from a car, hit gently from behind and then deliberately driven into from the side (though crank took most of the brunt of impact) plus a couple of self induced offs and zero damage to the carbon frame or component parts.

Using small number of examples that get highlighted on the internet is a very poor way to imply faulty/shoddy manufacturing and even worse to imply that x material is to be avoided, when other materials don't get the scrutiny and past and indeed current failures abound.

You seem to specialise in missing the point.

In this case the thing I found interesting was that someone had bought something that in some ways harks back to traditional craftmanship, a titanium bike made in a developed country.

But the people they put their trust in decided that modern plastics were a better choice for the fork than their 'boutique' titanium stuff.

Regardless of failure modes and so on, spending a large sum of money on such a bicycle is a statement in the way of spending lots of cash on say a pair of shoes or a watch.

Of course a plastic Casio vs a Rolex is not quite the same thing as a titanium bike Vs a Trek Exotico Plastico SL £99,000, but in the case that I buy into the idea that Bob's frames are better for some value of better than the space age plastic ones, and I consciously choose NOT to buy a Far Eastern bike, then it seems a little ironic that in the case of the fork that that trust has effectively been outsourced to God knows where and replaced with a sticker on the fork

[peetee]

the processes used in composite cycle parts manufacture are less exacting ....

If you pay Cervelo prices, you deserve the best. Evidently that is not available.

Which was exactly the point of the original post.

[mikeymo]

....but in the case that I buy into the idea that Bob's frames are better for some value of better....

(assuming you're talking about Bob Jackson)

There's a fair chance that if I buy another frame it would be from Bob Jackson. If it is the potential for sudden failure, leading to life changing injury or death, that is the question, then it seems to me that buying from a custom framemaker, who I will meet, whose factory is a short cycle ride from me, seems like a very good way of encouraging a safety first mentality on the part of the builder. After all, "local cyclist killed after frame made by local cycle builder" in the Yorkshire Evening Post doesn't seem like a headline BJ would relish.

[thelawnet]

....but in the case that I buy into the idea that Bob's frames are better for some value of better....

(assuming you're talking about Bob Jackson)

There's a fair chance that if I buy another frame it would be from Bob Jackson. If it is the potential for sudden failure, leading to life changing injury or death, that is the question, then it seems to me that buying from a custom framemaker, who I will meet, whose factory is a short cycle ride from me, seems like a very good way of encouraging a safety first mentality on the part of the builder. After all, "local cyclist killed after frame made by local cycle builder" in the Yorkshire Evening Post doesn't seem like a headline BJ would relish.

No, I was speaking figuratively - the titanium frame in question was from a company rather than an individual frame builder, but a key selling point is that your frame is NOT made in China/Taiwan, which is rather negated when the fork turns out to be a generic model with a sticker on, that snaps half way down the road.

[mig]

This was on a titanium frame.

for2.jpg

Apparently the fork failed cycling along a smooth road with no potholes, and has been found to have catastrophic voids. User has suffered broken neck, paralysis, among other things, and is still in a coma.

Frame builder makes their own Ti, and forks god knows where they come from, but somewhere in China/Taiwan presumably.

And in this era this gets lots of media/forum gossip, how many people died/paralysed because of metal failure in bicycles long before social media was a thing?
Cherry picking with anecdotal 'evidence' with no direct comparison to other materials nor coming up with any actual data/research regards failures or resistance to impact in usual cycle incidents including RTCs means this fear mongering is utter nonsense and not evidence based. Some on here claim to be 'experts' and they themselves cherry pick a sole manufacturer who goes to the nth degree in buttock covering in their information regards their products. In a litigious nation such as the USA it's hardly surprising that RITCHEY go to such lengths to protect themselves.

As for where components are made, this might have some bearing but not the country necessarily, Taiwan being one of, if not the leading countries in CF cycle frame/component manufacture. You could equally -by the numbers, get a not so good build from a smaller 'in house' builder, but you pay more for individual care over a build than from mass manufacturing so you'd expect there to be a much lower failure rate, is the reality true, I wouldn't know.

My race frame came with a fair and reasonably comprehensive 5 year warranty, I've never had to use it, earlier this spring my carbon tubular (front) wheel hit a significant pothole at 25mph, despite the huge jolt to myself it and the frame was undamaged. I occaisonally ride on a pair of 30 year old carbon composite forks (with the previous mentioned Triple butted steel frame).

I've had no issues with carbon at all, my commuter/utility do it all - carbon seat stays/forks/post and bars, has had some very heavy loading (over 170kg on more than a few occasions) and plenty of high speed/rough ground riding, oh and the small matter of being hit and run from behind, a side swipe from a car, hit gently from behind and then deliberately driven into from the side (though crank took most of the brunt of impact) plus a couple of self induced offs and zero damage to the carbon frame or component parts.

Using small number of examples that get highlighted on the internet is a very poor way to imply faulty/shoddy manufacturing and even worse to imply that x material is to be avoided, when other materials don't get the scrutiny and past and indeed current failures abound.

You seem to specialise in missing the point.

In this case the thing I found interesting was that someone had bought something that in some ways harks back to traditional craftmanship, a titanium bike made in a developed country.

But the people they put their trust in decided that modern plastics were a better choice for the fork than their 'boutique' titanium stuff.

Regardless of failure modes and so on, spending a large sum of money on such a bicycle is a statement in the way of spending lots of cash on say a pair of shoes or a watch.

Of course a plastic Casio vs a Rolex is not quite the same thing as a titanium bike Vs a Trek Exotico Plastico SL £99,000, but in the case that I buy into the idea that Bob's frames are better for some value of better than the space age plastic ones, and I consciously choose NOT to buy a Far Eastern bike, then it seems a little ironic that in the case of the fork that that trust has effectively been outsourced to God knows where and replaced with a sticker on the frame

are they on sale somewhere or something?

[mikeymo]

....but in the case that I buy into the idea that Bob's frames are better for some value of better....

(assuming you're talking about Bob Jackson)

There's a fair chance that if I buy another frame it would be from Bob Jackson. If it is the potential for sudden failure, leading to life changing injury or death, that is the question, then it seems to me that buying from a custom framemaker, who I will meet, whose factory is a short cycle ride from me, seems like a very good way of encouraging a safety first mentality on the part of the builder. After all, "local cyclist killed after frame made by local cycle builder" in the Yorkshire Evening Post doesn't seem like a headline BJ would relish.

No, I was speaking figuratively - the titanium frame in question was from a company rather than an individual frame builder, but a key selling point is that your frame is NOT made in China/Taiwan, which is rather negated when the fork turns out to be a generic model with a sticker on, that snaps half way down the road.

Ah, I see. I'm pretty sure Bob Jackson, and similar, make their own forks. Of course it's all pretty academic to me, I'm never going to ride a bicycle made out of pencil lead, or whatever this "carbon fibre " stuff is.

[Jamesh]

Mikeyo why not try a carbon bike?!!

If your 5ft 9 ish your more than welcome to try one of mine!

I'm not far from you in Baildon!

I enjoy all frame materials for what they are with thier different strengths and weaknesses.

Cheers James

[mikeymo]

Mikeyo why not try a carbon bike?!!

If your 5ft 9 ish your more than welcome to try one of mine!

I'm not far from you in Baildon!

I enjoy all frame materials for what they are with thier different strengths and weaknesses.

Cheers James

That's a very kind offer, thank you. I'll bear it in mind, last time I looked I was 5ft 10 (but I was wet through). When "this" is all over I might take you up on that, though we end up in a n+1 situation, which can't happen without "Project Shed" being completed. Or at least started.