Cycling UK Forum

IMO, the thing here is that the BBC Proms - which normally run for a couple of months are an important international event. The other evening they showed a recording of an earlier evening featuring the Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra of Venezuela. In an interview for the latest transmission, the conductor, Gustavo Dudamel likened the experience of playing at the Proms to a soccer team reaching the final of the World Cup.

IMO, this kind of event is crucial to the TV licence debate. Should making a significant contribution to classical music continue to be the role of the BBC?

What does the "Last Night" add, if anything?

Oldjohnw wrote:

Ben@Forest wrote:According to the Telegraph this morning the Finnish conductor, Dalia Stasevska, did not ask for Rule Britannia or LoHaG not to be sung - she's saying it was a BBC decision.

I thought that was already well known. The BBC made the decision because singing in community is bann d by the government. So they are having orchestral only this year and full service next. It is a non story run as part of the anti-bbc movement exploited by others who are against the BLM or woke or politically correct or whatever term they use

Exploited or not you'd have thought that with its resources the BBC could have come up with a solution where the singer could be 'remote' from the orchestra, there are no audiences to sing along are there? (it may've changed but 2 weeks ago there were no plans for audiences).

In a year where everything is different I'd have thought having something familiar from past years would have been an even better thing then normal.

Ben@Forest wrote:

Oldjohnw wrote:

Ben@Forest wrote:According to the Telegraph this morning the Finnish conductor, Dalia Stasevska, did not ask for Rule Britannia or LoHaG not to be sung - she's saying it was a BBC decision.

I thought that was already well known. The BBC made the decision because singing in community is bann d by the government. So they are having orchestral only this year and full service next. It is a non story run as part of the anti-bbc movement exploited by others who are against the BLM or woke or politically correct or whatever term they use

Exploited or not you'd have thought that with its resources the BBC could have come up with a solution where the singer could be 'remote' from the orchestra, there are no audiences to sing along are there? (it may've changed but 2 weeks ago there were no plans for audiences).

In a year where everything is different I'd have thought having something familiar from past years would have been an even better thing then normal.

over the stay in home periods some groups managed to sing or play in unison across the internet. It could have become a Karaoke event with the words on the screen for the singalong. SO I dont think its a non story, the BBC came under pressure from blmers like the Finnish conductor ( who is she to pontificate on multiculturism from a country that is almost lacking in any heterogeneity) who would do the last night and also anticipated accusations.

mercalia wrote:... the BBC came under pressure from blmers like the Finnish conductor ( who is she to pontificate on multiculturism from a country that is almost lacking in any heterogeneity)...

Finland?

There's a lot of Swedish-speaking people in Finland, there are two official languages, and municipalities are officially identified as unilingual or bilingual, with most Swedish speakers living in unilingual Swedish speaking municipalities. There's even a Swedish People's Party.

Then there's the Sami people with a separate ethnically-defined Parliament and trans-national rights.

Jonathan

Jdsk wrote:

mercalia wrote:... the BBC came under pressure from blmers like the Finnish conductor ( who is she to pontificate on multiculturism from a country that is almost lacking in any heterogeneity)...

Finland?

There's a lot of Swedish-speaking people in Finland, there are two official languages, and municipalities are officially identified as unilingual or bilingual, with most Swedish speakers living in unilingual Swedish speaking municipalities. There's even a Swedish People's Party.

Then there's the Sami people with a separate ethnically-defined Parliament and trans-national rights.

Jonathan

thats like comparing to the UK with the the Scots and Welsh; thats a lot of chinese/ africans of all types/polish & eastern european/yank/irish/etc they dont have.

Is anyone else really torn on this one, as a card carrying atheist lefty republican, I think that jingoistic songs of empire should be done away with. But I still love to hear them, land of Hope and Glory, Rule Britannia, Jerusalem, and swing low sweet Chariot. They are part of our history and they are difficult not to like. I don't like the national Anthem, nothing to do with it being about the monarchy just its a dirge.

I love the last night of the proms and its on my bucket list of things to do, go to the live event
.

Of course, the Germans rewrote the lyrics of their anthem vpost WW2 while retaining the tune.
"I've got a little list" by Gilbert and Sullivan is given a contemporary rewrite for every production (the original contains the n word), as has already been pointed out, Elgar wrote an instruemental to which the LoHaG lyrics were later attached.
There is no reason why we can't rewrite some of these (apart from the can of worms it would open).

NUKe wrote:Is anyone else really torn on this one, as a card carrying atheist lefty republican, I think that jingoistic songs of empire should be done away with. But I still love to hear them, land of Hope and Glory, Rule Britannia, Jerusalem, and swing low sweet Chariot. They are part of our history and they are difficult not to like. I don't like the national Anthem, nothing to do with it being about the monarchy just its a dirge.

I love the last night of the proms and its on my bucket list of things to do, go to the live event
.

I am not a Republican and I like The Last Night too. What I like particularly is all the various foreign national flags. Its as if foreigners are joining in their own patriotic celebration in their own way.
A few years ago I was at the Goodwood Revival which is quite a patriotic event. On the racetrack are drivers from Germany, the USA and even New Zealand! I met the German vintage sidecar champion in the crowd. He and his friends had come for the day from Germany and he was loving the Revival. Looking round at the military uniforms he was very envious. "Obviously we arent allowed to go in uniform in Germany" he said. "Next year I am coming with my bike and sidecar for the whole 3 days" he said. So, he didnt view the Revival as jingoistic. I have sat in a bar full of Spaniards in Spain watching the last night, and they were all singing and la laing to the anthems too. Its all in the mind.

Al

To be "jingoistic" Land of Hope and Glory, and Rule Britannia, would have to reflect a genuine popular sentiment, and they don't. Most UK citizens these days will view those two songs as humorous, farcical and more than a little embarrassing. I have never known anyone at all who thinks that Britannia rules the waves or who sees the UK as a land of glory. It is out of fashion to see any nation in terms like that. When I see it on TV I always cringe and hope no foreigners are looking in.

NUKe wrote:Is anyone else really torn on this one, as a card carrying atheist lefty republican, I think that jingoistic songs of empire should be done away with. But I still love to hear them, land of Hope and Glory, Rule Britannia, Jerusalem, and swing low sweet Chariot. They are part of our history and they are difficult not to like. I don't like the national Anthem, nothing to do with it being about the monarchy just its a dirge.

I love the last night of the proms and its on my bucket list of things to do, go to the live event
.

I'm very much of the same mind, except I do object to the words of the anthem as well as the awful tune.

The context of these things is everything. Take Guy Fawkes night. If there were murderous mobs tearing Catholics from their homes on Nov 5th, then I'd be in favour of banning bonfires and effigy burning. As it is, I love a fireworks display and poor quality mulled wine.

Equally, I don't see why it's wrong to ask the question of the words are still appropriate or not. Some people seem to want to be outraged for even considering it.

MrCJF wrote:Of course, the Germans rewrote the lyrics of their anthem vpost WW2 while retaining the tune.

They didn't rewrite it, they only use the third stanza. The first two stanzas however are not outlawed.

Another thing that only Germanophiles know is that the first stanza which starts 'Deutschland über alles' does not mean 'Germany above everyone else ' or some similar translation. It was written at the time when there were multiple German states, but the concept of German unification was gaining ground. The words describe the idea that 'a unified Germany was the most important goal.'. It wasn't about national superiority but a sense of German statehood.

Ben@Forest wrote:

MrCJF wrote:Of course, the Germans rewrote the lyrics of their anthem vpost WW2 while retaining the tune.

They didn't rewrite it, they only use the third stanza. The first two stanzas however are not outlawed.

Another thing that only Germanophiles know is that the first stanza which starts 'Deutschland über alles' does not mean 'Germany above everyone else ' or some similar translation. It was written at the time when there were multiple German states, but the concept of German unification was gaining ground. The words describe the idea that 'a unified Germany was the most important goal.'. It wasn't about national superiority but a sense of German statehood.

You sure about that? How does the next line go?

pwa wrote:

Ben@Forest wrote:

MrCJF wrote:Of course, the Germans rewrote the lyrics of their anthem vpost WW2 while retaining the tune.

They didn't rewrite it, they only use the third stanza. The first two stanzas however are not outlawed.

Another thing that only Germanophiles know is that the first stanza which starts 'Deutschland über alles' does not mean 'Germany above everyone else ' or some similar translation. It was written at the time when there were multiple German states, but the concept of German unification was gaining ground. The words describe the idea that 'a unified Germany was the most important goal.'. It wasn't about national superiority but a sense of German statehood.

You sure about that? How does the next line go?

Absolutely. It's as if Nicola Sturgeon said, 'The most important thing to me in the world is Scottish independence'. It doesn't therefore mean Scottish superiority.

5 years living in Germany and going to a German history/culture evening class speaking...

pwa wrote:You sure about that? How does the next line go?

Ben@Forest is right about the meaning when it was written.

Is that comment about "Über alles in der Welt" a suggestion that at the time it meant military domination?

Thanks

Jonathan

mercalia wrote:

Ben@Forest wrote:

Oldjohnw wrote:
I thought that was already well known. The BBC made the decision because singing in community is bann d by the government. So they are having orchestral only this year and full service next. It is a non story run as part of the anti-bbc movement exploited by others who are against the BLM or woke or politically correct or whatever term they use

Exploited or not you'd have thought that with its resources the BBC could have come up with a solution where the singer could be 'remote' from the orchestra, there are no audiences to sing along are there? (it may've changed but 2 weeks ago there were no plans for audiences).

In a year where everything is different I'd have thought having something familiar from past years would have been an even better thing then normal.

over the stay in home periods some groups managed to sing or play in unison across the internet. It could have become a Karaoke event with the words on the screen for the singalong. SO I dont think its a non story, the BBC came under pressure from blmers like the Finnish conductor ( who is she to pontificate on multiculturism from a country that is almost lacking in any heterogeneity) who would do the last night and also anticipated accusations.

Except that she didn't.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/ ... dApp_Other