Bailer twine across road to guide cows - I hit it !.. Advice pls

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
alexnharvey
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Re: Bailer twine across road to guide cows - I hit it !.. Advice pls

Postby alexnharvey » 27 Aug 2020, 5:59pm

Unfortunately, the alternative view you're presenting is < SNIP> dressed up in pseudo-legalese e.g. 'not being able to stop in a reasonable distance' etc which has nothing to do with the issue. There's no contributory negligence issue here, you're inventing it.

If the farmer simply paid for the damage his negligence has caused the OP wouldn't be considering lawyers.

I do also think that involving a lawyer is unlikely to get the OP the remedy he seeks but in the absence of any other way to get that remedy for the farmer's negligence it must be very tempting.
Last edited by Graham on 27 Aug 2020, 8:30pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bonefishblues
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Re: Bailer twine across road to guide cows - I hit it !.. Advice pls

Postby Bonefishblues » 27 Aug 2020, 6:07pm

alexnharvey wrote:Unfortunately, the alternative view you're presenting is <SNIP> dressed up in pseudo-legalese e.g. 'not being able to stop in a reasonable distance' etc which has nothing to do with the issue. There's no contributory negligence issue here, you're inventing it.

If the farmer simply paid for the damage his negligence has caused the OP wouldn't be considering lawyers.

I do also think that involving a lawyer is unlikely to get the OP the remedy he seeks but in the absence of any other way to get that remedy for the farmer's negligence it must be very tempting.

That's rather better than name-calling, although there's plenty in there there still - it's, you know, called 'engaging in a debate'.

So the message is that if someone does something wrong, I am freed of my duty to drive/ride with due care for my own safety, yes? Or are you saying that on your review of the evidence provided by the OP you don't think it applies here?
Last edited by Graham on 27 Aug 2020, 8:31pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: carry over edit in quotation

alexnharvey
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Re: Bailer twine across road to guide cows - I hit it !.. Advice pls

Postby alexnharvey » 27 Aug 2020, 6:21pm

How can anyone be reasonably expected to see a hazard that is unreasonably, I would say negligently, demarcated, so as not to be visible at any reasonable speed above walking pace?

Do you see how you have flipped the burden of reasonability (to suit your own ends)?
Last edited by alexnharvey on 27 Aug 2020, 6:23pm, edited 1 time in total.

Cowsham
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Re: Bailer twine across road to guide cows - I hit it !.. Advice pls

Postby Cowsham » 27 Aug 2020, 6:23pm

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:He,
Cowsham wrote:Where were the rest of his family when he needed someone to help him guide the cattle? Why do they feel justified saying you should pay half for the farm being entirely at fault ?

That camera's getting ordered tonight! Farmers seem to make a habit of promising one thing and doing the complete opposite. I've only known one decent one who was fortunately insured when one of his cows stepped out onto the road in front of my car and did £2000 of damage. He did want the cheapest of 3 quotes which was a load of hassle to get but the insurance paid out OK.

Unless under a lease or rented, I was always led to believe that its your prerogative as to where it is repaired!
Not anyone else's.


The last time someone hit our car that decision was taken out of our hands when we engaged a CHC to take care of the repairs and replacement rental car provision. Bit of a shock when I was told to sign up to the CHC hiring a solicitor on our behalf to try to claim £6000 of costs -- ( the wee car is only worth about £4000). But it was all just a ritual bartering between at fault and damaged party.

Lox
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Re: Bailer twine across road to guide cows - I hit it !.. Advice pls

Postby Lox » 27 Aug 2020, 6:35pm

Who else has encountered rope across the road in the dark with no warning... Did you see it and stop with ease your perspective seems one sided as no one expects rope across a road anytime of the day, to say I wasn't in control is unfair. It's not just 300 pound that was a guess, 1 day off work is 150 pound new brakes are prob 150 front and back my waterproof jacket was 100 pound trousers 30 how much is a new Yamaha computer and labour on top. Your missing the point he was willing to give me 75 pound of the bill, not acceptable, as long as I get more than 75 pound from compo then it was the better choice for me

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Paulatic
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Re: Baler twine across road to guide cows - I hit it !.. Advice pls

Postby Paulatic » 27 Aug 2020, 6:49pm

The charlieband turner is in evidence on some of my routes. In use at milking times so it’s afternoon if I meet them. The sound of a motorbike or bunching cows can alert me before the string. The string is usually adorned with a dirty old plastic bag in these parts. :)
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RH20
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Re: Bailer twine across road to guide cows - I hit it !.. Advice pls

Postby RH20 » 27 Aug 2020, 6:52pm

Seems to me you need professional advice. Are you a member of a trade union? Some trades unions offer legal advice for out of work problems. Have a look at your house insurance, do you have legal cover on it?
After this experience it is definitely worth considering having some insurance cover, third party, also legal cover in cases where you are the injured party.

Cyril Haearn
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Re: Bailer twine across road to guide cows - I hit it !.. Advice pls

Postby Cyril Haearn » 27 Aug 2020, 7:17pm

Might be worth contacting the cops and suggesting they go by at milking time to see if the piece of string is there
Perhaps they could charge the farmer with an offence (which offence?)
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Bonefishblues
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Re: Bailer twine across road to guide cows - I hit it !.. Advice pls

Postby Bonefishblues » 27 Aug 2020, 7:41pm

Lox wrote:Who else has encountered rope across the road in the dark with no warning... Did you see it and stop with ease your perspective seems one sided as no one expects rope across a road anytime of the day, to say I wasn't in control is unfair. It's not just 300 pound that was a guess, 1 day off work is 150 pound new brakes are prob 150 front and back my waterproof jacket was 100 pound trousers 30 how much is a new Yamaha computer and labour on top. Your missing the point he was willing to give me 75 pound of the bill, not acceptable, as long as I get more than 75 pound from compo then it was the better choice for me

Someone putting another perspective may appear 'one-sided', perhaps. It is alarming to hear someone who consults no-win, no-fee lawyers who will bleed them of anything they might win - seemed to me that another perspective might have been helpful. It's clearly unwelcome, so I wish you every success in your action for 'compo'. Take good advice, and go carefully on those lanes in the half-light.

Lox
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Re: Bailer twine across road to guide cows - I hit it !.. Advice pls

Postby Lox » 27 Aug 2020, 8:27pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
Lox wrote:Who else has encountered rope across the road in the dark with no warning... Did you see it and stop with ease your perspective seems one sided as no one expects rope across a road anytime of the day, to say I wasn't in control is unfair. It's not just 300 pound that was a guess, 1 day off work is 150 pound new brakes are prob 150 front and back my waterproof jacket was 100 pound trousers 30 how much is a new Yamaha computer and labour on top. Your missing the point he was willing to give me 75 pound of the bill, not acceptable, as long as I get more than 75 pound from compo then it was the better choice for me

Someone putting another perspective may appear 'one-sided', perhaps. It is alarming to hear someone who consults no-win, no-fee lawyers who will bleed them of anything they might win - seemed to me that another perspective might have been helpful. It's clearly unwelcome, so I wish you every success in your action for 'compo'. Take good advice, and go carefully on those lanes in the half-light.

I realise compo is a horrible word and as I said this was my last resort as I tried to reason with them. I appreciate all your input sorry if I reacted negatively towards it, peace.

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Re: Bailer twine across road to guide cows - I hit it !.. Advice pls

Postby PH » 27 Aug 2020, 8:59pm

Lox wrote:Ye not that bad injuries wise but he didn't end up in a pile of cow muck, mud and water ive ugot in touch with accident solicitors there happy to persue a no win no fee not what I wanted to do but feel I have no choice as they think it's acceptable practise and angered me by saying it was my fault for not seeing it

I'd be surprised if you get a no win no fee agreement with the present claim. They might have led you on in anticipation of bumping it up, but they can only handle claims under those terms if they involve personal injury - There's some qualifying criteria for that, I think it has to be an injury that lasts more than four weeks and there's a minimum claim value that's way above what you're talking about.
But do check, if there's one thing this thread has shown it's that internet forums are a poor place to get legal advice.
EDIT - Even if you were a Cycling UK member, I think the best you could expect is their advice pack, which is helpful but still leaves you with a lot to do on your own. I received this last year when a car ran into a bike but somehow managed to miss me!
LAST EDIT - I was told by the loss adjuster from my claim above that if there was any element of personal injury they couldn't offer a full settlement till after a medical report had been compiled and also that the claim would have to be handled by the legal team.
Last edited by PH on 27 Aug 2020, 9:54pm, edited 1 time in total.

PH
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Re: Bailer twine across road to guide cows - I hit it !.. Advice pls

Postby PH » 27 Aug 2020, 9:50pm

Bonefishblues wrote:So as a much more vulnerable road user you were riding in part light beyond your ability to see and stop then (20 mph, IIRC?) Notwithstanding that the farmer did the wrong thing, one has a duty to take care, too.

As I say, two perspectives.


This idea that you should be able to see anything in the road would have seriously spoilt the plot of The Great Escape.
But it isn't an absolute, it's based on what would be reasonable - So would someone travelling at a reasonable speed have been reasonably expected to see it in time and stop. You think yes, I think no, but it isn't either of us who will decide. You might consider if you could always see and avoid a pothole, if you don't and it causes injury or damage, you certainly have a claim, there are solicitors specialising in it.
If this goes to the farmer's insurers my money is on them just settling. I've made two claims in the last 12 months, one from my own insurers and the other from a drivers, both well over the sums being discussed here and my experience is that they're not interested in spending too much time trying to save a couple of hundred quid.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Bailer twine across road to guide cows - I hit it !.. Advice pls

Postby Bonefishblues » 27 Aug 2020, 10:25pm

PH wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:So as a much more vulnerable road user you were riding in part light beyond your ability to see and stop then (20 mph, IIRC?) Notwithstanding that the farmer did the wrong thing, one has a duty to take care, too.

As I say, two perspectives.


This idea that you should be able to see anything in the road would have seriously spoilt the plot of The Great Escape.
But it isn't an absolute, it's based on what would be reasonable - So would someone travelling at a reasonable speed have been reasonably expected to see it in time and stop. You think yes, I think no, but it isn't either of us who will decide. You might consider if you could always see and avoid a pothole, if you don't and it causes injury or damage, you certainly have a claim, there are solicitors specialising in it.
If this goes to the farmer's insurers my money is on them just settling. I've made two claims in the last 12 months, one from my own insurers and the other from a drivers, both well over the sums being discussed here and my experience is that they're not interested in spending too much time trying to save a couple of hundred quid.

I well understand the concept and test of reasonableness as it relates to the law of tort, thanks, it's changed little since I qualified. It also applies to all parties at all times, even when one party is ostensibly in the wrong (duty of care to burglars is usually the cause celebre, isn't it) The other party's representative will seek to establish that all road users should drive, ride, walk at a speed that allows them to stop in the distance they see to be clear. Things have already started along that road, according to the OP's account of discussions with the farmer and his family.

Please tell me where I have said I think yes, as you state because I'm at a loss - it is a statement of fact that the OP either saw too late, or saw not at all to avoid the accident. All I have sought to do is give a counterpoint for the OP to some of the more rabid views expressed, one of which was removed at my suggestion since it in turn involved a suggestion of what amounted to extortion. At every stage I have said that there are two perspectives to every scenario. The groupspeak on here is strong sometimes.

Here's an individual who was all for putting this in the hands on no-win no fee lawyers only a few hours ago. Now it may be that this is a sufficiently small claim such as to just to be paid as a nuisance, as are many of the employment claims that are more my stock in trade these days, but I'm quite happy to express an unpopular view such that the OP goes into something eyes-open, rather than being egged on by a cycling forum.

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Re: Bailer twine across road to guide cows - I hit it !.. Advice pls

Postby PH » 27 Aug 2020, 11:14pm

Bonefishblues wrote:Please tell me where I have said I think yes, as you state because I'm at a loss - it is a statement of fact that the OP either saw too late, or saw not at all to avoid the accident.

[BTW, any decent lawyers on behalf of NFU Mutual (who most farmers will be with) will point to your contributory negligence (aka (partly) 'your fault'

Will that do? Are you not there saying it was reasonable for the rider to have seen it? Hard to see how they contributed if not.
The other party's representative will seek to establish that all road users should drive, ride, walk at a speed that allows them to stop in the distance they see to be clear.

Yes - the distance they see to be clear. That's the question, can you be expected to see such a hazard, I'd advise the OP that if they believe not they should pursue it, our opinion doesn't really matter.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Bailer twine across road to guide cows - I hit it !.. Advice pls

Postby Bonefishblues » 27 Aug 2020, 11:39pm

PH wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Please tell me where I have said I think yes, as you state because I'm at a loss - it is a statement of fact that the OP either saw too late, or saw not at all to avoid the accident.

[BTW, any decent lawyers on behalf of NFU Mutual (who most farmers will be with) will point to your contributory negligence (aka (partly) 'your fault'

Will that do? Are you not there saying it was reasonable for the rider to have seen it? Hard to see how they contributed if not.
The other party's representative will seek to establish that all road users should drive, ride, walk at a speed that allows them to stop in the distance they see to be clear.

Yes - the distance they see to be clear. That's the question, can you be expected to see such a hazard, I'd advise the OP that if they believe not they should pursue it, our opinion doesn't really matter.

Did you read and understand what I wrote? Possibly not. That's not my opinion. That's a counterpoint to others egging the OP on. Any lawyers or claims professionals worth their salt will run that argument, as I was attempting to illustrate. It's not rocket science, establishing, or attempting to establish that the OP contributed to his own downfall by riding at 20mph in part light, without lighting adequate to light his path and accordingly his compensation should be reduced by x%**

Just as they would say that this farming practice was well established over decades (the twine's even on Google Maps for goodness sake!) Four times a day Doris and her milking chums have traipsed across the road without previous incidents, and that it was not reasonably foreseeable that someone would come haring along a very lightly-trafficed road in the early morning at such breakneck speed.**

It's what the OP might reasonably foreseeability (see what I did there) get into if he is unable to settle this consensually, as I suggested he should continue to seek to do.

But hey, fill your boots :D

**Illustrations of the arguments that would be run, not reflective of poster's personal opinion.